Joining up - can someone explain how this works

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Ashtown Honey

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Feb 7, 2005
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Am starting to think about dabbling a little in the NHM school of thought as have bought a new horse recently who is so very different from my previous horse I need some help in trying to understand his personality and establish myself as the herd leader if you know what I mean.

While I have found some info on the 7 games etc. I can't seem to find anything that explains exactly how joining up works...can anyone give me a brief explanation or let me know about any links where this process is explained...

Thanks
 
"Join Up" is Monty Robert's name for a specific process - suggest you try "intelligent horsemanship" site (Kelly Marks is his main UK person).
 
Explaining join up, or at least how to do it, is a very difficult thing to do. There is so much involved, including what to do with your eyes and what to look for from the horse (very subtle things!). The best thing is for you to take a peek at the website cvb mentioned or look around for Robert's book "The Man Who Whisper's to Horses". In that book, he explains where his methods come from and the exact 'how to' for join up.
 
agree with jinglejoys read 'the man who listens to horses' and then get 'from my hands to yours' cos it explains in loadsa detail wot to do!
join ups lovely, not that ive acheived it yet cos i havent go a round pen! and waiting for 'from my hand to yours' but can garuntee its all good cos ive seen other peoples copies :)! and ive seen montry roberts and kelly mark in action (on video tho but anyway!)
 
You don't need a round pen, you can do it in an open field, you just need a lot of time! If you keep walking after the horse, encouraging it to move away from you and not giving it time to graze, after a while you will notice the ear nearest to you Fixing on you, and usually quite soon after this the horse will want to come in to you. I've done it lots with horses that are hard to catch, it took me an hour and a half on one occasion, but half an hour usually does it. Then you have a friend for life!
 
I understand John Lyons has some good stuff on round pens, but haven't seen it myself.

The other one is Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling's book "Dancing With Horses" - which is more about body language than Join-Up, but I like it ;)
 
Perfect Manners by Kelly Marks also has a good section on join up depending on where you are. Join up basically mimics the actions of a boss mare disciplining a horse by sending it out of the herd and then allowing it back in when it shows signs of contrition. I watched a few now and the horses have never appeared stressed or distressed by the process. I also had a little go myself recently in a round pen and was immediately struck by how much more immediate the communication is between yourself and the horse, it's very easy to get and keep the horses full attention in comparison to a field.
 
Join up is like trying to speak horse language. It's using everything in your body to try and understand them, and in a way, become the "lead horse" (prepare for a long post)

You *can* use a feild, but a round pen is what I prefer- all the focus is on the two of you, much less outer distractions. To start you need to horse trotting around you, and to do this you need to really push the horse away from you. Do not yell or speak, if anything use the signals, the clicking and kissing sounds to be simple. Monty Roberts has this technique down to the ground if you need more reading about everything by the way. (My trainer taught me all of this in a singal round pen session, it's easy to learn) You need to get the horse travelling smoothly, and always direct your gaze and your "force" to the horses up. Never the head, shoulders or anything of that sort, always forcing them from the rear. The horse should be lowering its head comfortably, and hopefully chewing a little bit as well. The horses inside ear should be one you occaisionally, and it should be trying to travel inwards towards you. You want to be turning the horse (causing them to turn inwards, not outwards to the fence) and speeding them up or slowing them down until both of you understand whats going on and are comefortable. And thats when you lithely have to cut off their path and bring them down to a halt. You should be in the center, and if not, "shy away" into the center. NEVER simply turn onto your heal and go abruptly to the center, this is cutting off your communication with the horse. Move sideways.

Now once your in the middle, have your body angled towards the horse, but not directly away. direct your head and gaze downward,and to its hip area and wait. This may take a few times to work- if there is absolutely nothing after two minutes, or if the horse moves away or around you, go back to pushing the horse. However, if you've done everything smoothly and properly, the horse should make its way over to you- offer a hand to sniff once it is nearby, but slowly. Them move to the horses shoulder and give a rubdown to the horse to reward them for cooperating.

This may not be a perfect description, but you really need to see it to really understand and excell.
 
Just.jump thanks for that - can you explain how you would get the horse trotting around you, are you lunging? Or is the horse without headcollar or tack? If so then do you move towards the horse so he moves away from you - does this mean you are running around with/after the horse? (please excuse my ignorance on this one!!) - is the objective here to show your dominance?

If I understand it right once you have figured out how to make the horse move away from you by focussing on their mid-section and hind quarters (rather than at their head/shoulders) then you make your way to the centre of the pen, ensuring you don't turn your back on the horse, stand still with shoulders & body angled towards the horse, drop your eyes away from eye contact and towards the hind quarters and wait.
in theory then the horse should come towards you because now it can, it has in theory wanted to come towards you for a while but you haven't let him so now he is taking up the opportunity...

Can you let me know if I have interpreted this right (and can you also let me know how big the pen should be
 
Join up is not chasing your horse around a pen. Keep in mind, the less you move, the more powerful you are percieved (albeit, if you can still keep the horse under your control). You should not have to leave the center of the pen.

The primary principle of join up is "he who moves the other horses feet is boss".

Have you read the book yet? Roberts says to angle your body at or behind the mid section and focus on the eyes. This puts pressure on the horse and causes him to move out. If you want him to slow, you drop your eyes back toward the mid section (drop the pressure). At the second you invite the join up (after ALL other signs have been obtained; licking, chewing, head dropping, etc)., your entire body language changes and it may even include turning your back.

You're best bet is to read the book. It will certainly clear it all up for you.

An average size pen for an average size horse should be 60' in size.
 
I don't have a "posh" round pen.I made mine by marking out a circle using baler twine and a stake then put posts in every 10' and stapling fencing wire to it. If you've got a good source of old big bales you could make a circle of those.
Of coarse it wouldn't work for a really wild horse but the average horse that you just want to jion up with would stay in.
Do get a copy of Montys or Richard Maxwel etc videos it is really worth watching and that special join up moment if fantastic. :)
 
i have done what 'in touch' has done and basically just joined up by walking round the field, i have done it before but didnt really notice what i was doing.
i reall want to read dancing with horses i shall look for it in my library.
 
Ashtown-

You should't have to run around behind the horse at all. I use a round pen that isn't too large, so I don't use any tack at all, not even a halter so I don't use a lunge line. In my world the only purpose of a lungeline is a subsitute when a round pen isn't available and you need to keep the horse going in a circle. And normally I do not use a whip as if you don't drop it down at the right time and angle you could be taking a step back with the horse when your ready for them to come in. You should be staying in the center of the pen, using an arm to guide the horse along.
 
just to comment again on the "beyond join up" benefits, and say again how much I like the work in Dancing With Horses.

I had a long reining lesson on Saturday. I've played at it before but not really known whether I was doing anything right, or what the real "aim" was.

But I found myself using both my parelli principles (shoulder-in on long reins :cool: ) AND the KFH Dancing With Horses body language to get my half-halts.

And the end result was that rather than Fi and I just dashing madly round the school tied to each other :rolleyes: we actually did some real training :eek: Walk, Walk shoulder-in, then to trot with some trot shoulder-in. My rein changes aren't very slick yet, but I can practise that. And I don't think I'm fit enough for canter yet :eek:

but it was one of those moments when all sorts of bits and pieces come together to make one lovely whole :D

And my instructor for this session said - well some people use the whip or flap the reins to ask the horse to move off, but I just use my energy :) (Just want to point out that this is a "BHS Instructor" - so they're not all bad !)

So Ashtown Honey "can you explain how you would get the horse trotting around you, are you lunging?"

No you are not lunging. But when you work out how to do this with just body language, you will find you can use it with lunging and riding :)

When you start, you will probably need quite BIG body language as the horse has to learn what you mean. But over time it gets quieter and quieter.

What you want to do is raise your energy level and DRIVE the horse forward. Imagine the horse has a "bubble" of personal space around them (different horses have different spaces, and are more or less sensitive to it). "push" the bubble so that it moves away from you. If the horse doesn't move, push harder. This is all just with your body - like when another person comes into your personal space. When you start, it can be use to have e.g. a carrot stick or small length of rope - this is purely to give you a "longer arm" and keep you safe rather than for "punishment". I told my niece to be a "lion" and just thinking of that got the body language she needed ;)

arg - this could turn into a novel. let me know if above makes sense and/or what needs more explanation or clarification !
 
Thanks everyone - getting a lot clearer now! I will read the book but just wanted to understand the principles of it...so thanks for all the input and info. I think once I have read up properly on it I will give it a shot with my boy, he has a real dominance problem (takes off dragging me behing him when we turn him towards the trailer to load - then walks in straight away when he realises it's not worth fighting over) - he's completely fine and biddable when I am riding him, responds well to the aids etc. I think he has just been used to being the leader of the herd in his last home and his previous owner let him away with murder...I don't want to have to smack him everytime he won't stand still when I try to groom him (he's grey and has a lovely habit of lying in his own poo on the night before we have to go anywhere...!!)

Will let you know how we get on

Thanks again
 
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