Kick along or technical riding??

eml

eml

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Apr 29, 2002
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I notice on the RS diaries and from a number of clients I have taken on recently that kicking/using stick to go up a pace and pulling on the reins to go down is being taught in many schools. This results in riders being able to do all paces and often also jump without much attention to position or developing feel for the horses way of going......I actually had two new riders maintain the only way to go into canter was in rising trot as they never did sitting...they were in the advanced class in their old RS.

I probably take twice as long to get a rider cantering and many times longer to let them jump any serious height as I want them to get quality transitions and be balanced and able to control the canter rhythm and balance the horse before going on to jumping courses, not just point and hang on.


I often feel I may be boring beginner riders but today I had a good example of why basics matter. I put three of my novice adults (ridden for six months) on more advanced horses and they all achieved really good work....new riders with four years experience on same horses this week could not ride them correctly around corners or get canter transitions.

A bit like the tortoise and the hare!

I discussed this with the mother of a child rider today and likened it to learning to swim enough to keep afloat then going back to learn correct strokes. I think it better to learn the correct strokes from the beginning although obviously this takes longer and can be less exciting

Good weekend discussion topic!!!
 
I am desperate to take my two back home to mum and dads for Christmas so I can have a lesson on madam at old rs with favr instructor- dotty but lovely lady, particular on position and correct aids. Always over ran in lessons because she was insistent on answering all questions. Fantastic lady and I miss her!
 
Totally agree with what has already been said. The sad thing is so many of these experienced riders see nothing wrong with the way they have been taught and dont want to be corrected.

IMO you never stop learning!
 
As a complete beginner what you describe eml is exactly what I am looking for and I have private lessons for that reason.
I think lessons are quite expensive, therefore I want "proper" teaching specific to me. I want a potential bad habit corrected before I have even picked it up if at all possible! or at least very shortly afterwards.
Perhaps because I'm older, I am very aware that I cannot run before I can walk, also I'm fairly nervous I suppose.
I have had a grand total of 7 lessons so far, the first 5 of these on the lunge working (so far as I can tell) on position and transitions. Lessons 6 & 7 were steering at walk. Apparently this is very slow and I should have acheived more - probably there has been a degree of duplication as I've had (for various reasons) 4 different RIs in these lessons - but actually I was quite happy until I was told this.
It is very difficult to critique what you are being taught when you are a complete beginner. You have to trust the person who is teaching you to do the job properly...
 
You know that I agree with you eml.
However, the problem stems from the disproportionate role played by canter in assessment of progress. From my point of view as an entirely uneducated new rider at a top BHS school, one was limited to nursery status unless one could canter. The paradox is that a canterer however wobbly is regarded as safer from health and safety perspective than a student who doesnt yet canter.

At that school one couldnt join a group -only have expensive private lessons in which I was bulled and forced to give way constantly to the other student sharing the school. I couldnt hack. And my not cantering marked me a failure.

Not cantering still acts as a barometre of self esteem. Our grand daughter shared a lesson with a much younger little girl who had just started to canter and was very proud of it.
I am sure that my grand daughter will start to canter one day - may be next summer but, to a child, trotting with no stirrups and no reins on the lunge does not constitute an achievement. And hearing the other child brag about cantering has made us all slightly impatient.
Then of course you get pressure on schools and instructors from children and their parents to press on with canter?

How do you deal with this eml?
 
Ive always said you write just how she would, so by default you get the same description.

In hindsight Im not sure dotty is the right word, scatty - always busy doing something and very passionate about horses and learning more about horse care - always open to new ideas.
 
When I got LL and started again, I stared having lessons. I just couldnt get canter transition going from rising trot to canter ( I wasnt bringing my outside leg back far enough.....)something never felt right and LL used to fall into canter. It was a change of speed to her but not a three beat speed ?

I then changed instructors who then refresed me to sitting trot then into canter and it all came flooding back ! no more leaning forward on my behalf and no more rushing and falling into canter on hers.

Why do they not teach sitting trot and then into canter ??
 
Libbylou, I can't think of any sensible reason to teach canter from rising trot. If you can't sit to trot you should not be cantering. Plus, how does the horse know that you want to canter and not just trot faster? Like you say it is a recipe for a horrid canter that is on the forehand. As far as I know there is no system of teaching that advocates this (although maybe someone else knows of a system that does?).

Skib, that sounds awful! The importance of canter must be a BHS thing, or possibly to do with insurance? I will be interested to see EML's reply.
 
Even I have never heard of teaching the canter transition from rising trot - At the bog standard BHS schools I was expected to sit for a stride or two and then ask for canter.

However, I can think of some reasons for doing it.
Our RI teaches canter from walk because she wanted students to be secure in the saddle at the point where they experience their first canter transitions. Many learner riders are unsteady in sitting trot. So teaching the canter transition from rising trot might have the same purpose?

The other reason may be traditional UK teaching. I had a couple of rides as a teenager - My brother (who could ride) and I went out hacking in a small group with me on a lead rein, but including canter which was ridden in forward seat so very easy for me. And I am pretty sure we went into this forward seat canter from rising trot (not sitting)

eml may know about this. It is amazing in retrospect. But that was how things were. I was not afraid of canter on those rides.
 
From a novice riders viewpoint.
i go to 2 RS's where i go on a Monday, when i went it was coming back to riding after 20 odd years, so although i could ride (badly) because you 'get on with it' probably haven't been taught correctly but i really enjoy the lessons so keep going. I also think the horses 'know what they are doing' so if you ask incorrectly for canter seeing as everyone else is doing it the horse does it tool. At my new RS where i've been going about a month I feel like I'm learning to ride again can only just get these horses to canter after a lot of trying and realise how rubbish I am at the new school. I think my new RS is more in line with your way of thinking eml. Both RS's do canter from sitting trot.
However, i do use my new RS techniques at my old RS and some of the better schooled horses understand the things i'm asking and others you still have to kick, kick, kick.
 
I do not understand some instructors obsession with canter however in a big school with large numbers in a group it is probably safer that everyone can can cope if their horse canters accidentally, same with hacking. In a few lessons I have had a number of ponies/horses start cantering together if say a loud noise outside the school startles them. All riders have stayed on with a simple instruction to hold saddle and sit up and the ponies/horses are sensible enough to stop again after a few strides. It is certainly nothing to do with insurance and tbh I would find it hard to justify on H&S grounds...surely every RS has a few horses that are 'bombproof' and will look after riders.

As far as children go I actually make a game out of being led in canter with a sensible helper to hold small childrens legs as they inevitably bounce ..I do not teach them to canter by themselves until totally secure in sitting trot and stable while led like this. We have more children arrive from other riding schools who have lost all confidence from cantering, and even in some cases jumping, too early, than for any other cause. Playing games at least means the children can join in the 'I cantered today ' discussions with friends and makes a lot of parents happy!!
 
Calluna said:
I have had a grand total of 7 lessons so far, the first 5 of these on the lunge working (so far as I can tell) on position and transitions. Lessons 6 & 7 were steering at walk. Apparently this is very slow and I should have acheived more
Click to expand...

Lunge lessons are fantastic for all levels of rider but IMO they are especially good for beginners because they help to develop good balance and an independent seat. I've found that it's actually common practise in some European countries for people to learn on the lunge and not start riding off the lunge until their basic skills have been very well-established. I know a number of very good Portuguese dressage riders who started out on the lunge, some for up to a year. By the time they come to riding off the lunge they already have a good seat, good balance, understanding of the correct position, correct aids, correct way of going for a horse during school work. In Italy I met a lot of riders who learned on the lunge as well.

"Slow/fast progress" is an interesting term. I think that if you rush through things too quickly and don't learn to do things properly from the beginning, you are more likely to develop bad habits which you will then, at some point in the future, need to go back and correct. In my experience correcting bad habits is far more difficult than learning to do something correctly in the first place! I think many riders who were rushed through things, get to a point in the future when they hit a block with their riding because they try to do something and find out they don't have the necessary technical ability.

Most of our students are our Pony Club kids. They are naturally competitive with each other in the group lessons and they all want to be able to do the same things as each other. Their instinct is to value how many things they can do, over how well they can do them. Some of them are extremely keen learners and want to learn the proper way to do things, but with a lot of them, it can be very hard to explain the importance of doing the SIMPLE THINGS WELL and not moving on too quickly. In the Pony Club lessons we tend to focus on group activities - drill work, mounted games, cushion polo, pony swapping, teaching each other, Handy Pony courses etc - and we encourage them to have private lessons for the more technical stuff. It can be hard to focus on technical riding when you have 6 or 8 people riding at once! Many of our kids have a private lesson during the week and then come to Pony Club at the weekend. So that money isn't a limiting factor for some families, we have introduced an adoption scheme in which the child's monthly fee to "adopt" their favourite pony entitles them to, among other things, a discount on private lessons. This way they are learning to be skilful, competent riders but also having the fun casual side that develops their confidence and enthusiasm.
 
Im glad that this has been bought up actually. With the kids riding my gang I was worried that it was my slow progress with them that was making them nervous. I think it's actually that they are riding less. Haven been helping them abou two months now, and only once have they trotted off lead rein - they do all work off lead rein but all walk and steering and stopping stuff. The eldesthas jumped and canters the ex loan pony because all friends in field were but without friends the confidence goes. This week we have played gymkhana games, I want them to be confident on the ground and on board.
 
I can see their point to a certain extent, but it sounds like it is a real issue!
Ideally I would like to teach people first on a simulator, then on a good lunge horse doing walk to canter (oh, for an ideal world :happy:)

Thinking about it, I learnt canter on a hack (as quite a young child, can't remember how young!) although as there was no school this was the only way. I was on a lead rein being lead from another horse, and honestly can't remember how exactly it happened :unsure:

When I taught at a riding school, my clients learnt out hacking (horses were much better behaved hacking) and much easier to canter in a straight line with more forward going horses. I would have a good lead rider, with me behind shouting instructions. BUT, all my riders would be perfectly capable of doing a good balanced trot, both rising and sitting and have reasonably good seats before I would attempt this, and I would only use horses I was sure of.

Skib: I have use of a simulator in Chobham if you ever fancy some canter lessons (albeit on a machine!).
 
Interesting topic eml - I was never really taught how to ride first time round as a kid. I think I had about two/three lessons and learnt the rest from my pony. Have to say it felt more natural to sit to the trot to push my pony into canter, I don't remember ever being told that this is the way it should be done, I learned through feel and my school mistress of a pony (she was fab!)
Now I'm returning to riding I've been having lessons for the last eight months so as to refind my balance and learn how to ride properly. It has crossed my mind that I may be a crap rider as I wasn't allowed to canter until six months had passed but it's reassuring to think that actually a little part of it was my RI paying close attention to my transitions halt, walk, trot and direct transitions, sitting trot with and without stirrups to make sure this was all up to scratch before we moved on to canter.
I do still think I'm progressing slower than I could be but the repetition is good for me as my own horse is green and needs the most balanced rider possible - I lean forward in a walk to check his girth is tight enough and he automatically thinks trot. We've come a cropper on many occasions purely because he spooks, I've lost my seat and he panics making it worse.
Based on my last ride I'd say the lessons are most definitely paying off and I very much advocate slow, sure progress and alot more reliance on my seat.
Sorry thats just a garbled comment :redface:
 
I couldn't agree with you more eml!

Where I learnt to ride it certainly wasn't the most orthdox RS but my RI was so particular about the horses' mouths and balance that you weren't allowed the reins until you could hold them without pulling the horses about.

I see so many people riding who have no concept of how their balance affects the horse, but it's really encouraging to see the more classical ideas coming back into fashion even though to many people it's the long way round.
 
I feel increasingly annoyed that I wasted the first 2 years of my riding career at an RS that taught the kick-along method on kick-along horses. I had been told how to give aids correctly but never needed them and certainly once you had cantered once, if you trotted towards a corner, you got canter whether you wanted it or not.

I'd love to have started my lessons as Calluna has - lots of lunge work so by the time I was off the lunge I had a reasonable seat, position and balance. As I am I am relearning these things after such a long time, it's very difficult to correct. Don't listen to people who criticise your progress, Calluna, it will no doubt benefit you to learn slowly, but thoroughly, as eml (I think!!) favours :)
 
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