Laminitis confusion & barefoot

Montana

Montana

Active Member
Feb 22, 2005
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I have just had the first visit from my new EP (Am transitioning to barefoot - lots of reasons, the story is here if you want to see it -http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=116727)

Since the shoes have come off, Monty's fetlocks have been puffy. All of them are less puffy now than they have been, the near hind is still puffy, but this appears to be linked to a tendon sheath injury he had last year, the 'scar tissue' site does sometimes puff up - vet was unconcerned last time I had them out for this.

The EP checked for digital pulses, and found fairly strong pulses in all of his legs:(. I have been checking, but in the wrong (or more difficult to detect)place.

I went into full blown worry - he didn't seem too concerned:confused:. Apparently, Monty is showing no other signs of laminitis, his foot is landing correctly, there is no tenderness with hoof 'pinchers'. He suggested a grazing muzzle, which I'm going to get today, but to leave him out as he has been.

The grazing is typical welsh hill farm fairly poor grazing. Plenty of short grass, but no clover etc. He's out 24/7. He's sound on grass, still ouchy without shoes on gravel/stones, pretty sound on concrete/tarmac. I need to get some weight off him, but it's a balancing act with exercise, as his tendon needs a couple of weeks ideally to settle back down. He goes ballistic if stabled on his own (not just an initial thing that he can get over, but full blown panic which will cause real damage to his leg)

Is this possibly LGL? What's the difference between that, and normal laminitis? What can anyone suggest I could do to help this improve, given the circumstances?

Bit confused really - I know that the pulses are not a good sign - but what do they actually mean? Or is that debatable? Is it always a sign of laminitis, or could it just be a transitioning thing due to increased circulation/soreness in his feet etc?
 
Don't quote me but it might not be LGL. Some horses will have stronger pulses due to increased circulation like you say and some will have stronger pulses after exercise. Some horses with LGL don't even have strong pulses :rolleyes: It's all so confusing and there is no straight cut answer.

I would get him on Mag Ox and give him access to salt/give him a spoon-full of rock salt in his food. Muzzle him, and if you can bring him in from about midday till late afternoon as this is when the sugars in the grass are at their highest. If you can't bring him in then make sure he is muzzled/in a bare paddock or school for that time. Soaked hay (as in soaked for 12 hours) is ideal if you do get him off the grass, get him on a good balancer if you haven't already and stop any sugars he might be getting - even carrots and apples.

Mine have been a bit off so I bring them in about 12-6pm, have upped their mag ox, cut out all sugars i.e. fruit and veg, feed is only soaked lucerne (simple systems) and increased exercise. Silvers pulses have reduced right down and Toby, who has had confirmed LGL is okay now too. Both are barefoot (Silver only 8 weeks in) and both are fine going over most surfaces, Silver more ouchy than Toby but 100% better than a few weeks ago.

It is such a hard balance and I am obsessed with it!
 
Couldn't bruising/inflammation cause digital pulse to increase? Surely with the shoes off, his sole corium is a bit more exposed now to pressure through the sole (which may not yet be very high quality), so could it be bruising of some sort. I've read that it takes about 3 months to gain sufficient new sole to help out a weak, thin or compromised sole that is in the process of repairing.
 
BTW you don't have xrays of any of the feet do you?

I really liked the fact that my NB farrier had xrays of the front feet to work with, so we knew *exactly* what was going on inside the hooves in so many ways - the depth of the sole, the angles of the p3 at the front and bottom, the thickness of the hoof wall, angle of hoof wall relative to coffin bone angle, thickness of digital cushion. Not sure if your trimmer would find the information valuable, but I really like having the xrays - means the trimmer does not have to take educated ideas at what is inside, but knows exactly what one is dealing with. If I was transitioning (esp. if any issues) or working on a horse with problem feet using remedial shoeing of some sort, I'd always have xrays done just for extra information. Of course, they can cost a lot and goodness knows we already have so many expenses with horses.
 
Thanks guys

Martini - will pm you with EP name:). He was concerned that some thing was going on, and said that ideally the pulses should be undetectable, but was looking at it all from more than just a knee jerk reaction to one thing, which I appreciated

Thanks chewitmonster - glad to hear I'm not the only one obsessed, and not finding straight answers! I like the compromise of bringing him in for a few hours in the afternoon. Probably wouldn't stable him, for risk of him damaging himself:rolleyes:, but there's a bare paddock (150 x 150m) where his injured friend hangs out at the moment, could put him in there. He's not on Mag ox at the moment, but he is on the NAF Magic powder (will try to get hold of Mag ox next week), he also has a hanful of happy hoof with his supplements - MSM for joints/tendons and Sarc-ex. What would you call a good balancer? And what would this do for him?

Hi Scarlett - I would think logically that bruising could cause it, makes sense, although I haven't been told this by anyone. I really like the idea of getting x-rays done too. Hard facts would put my mind a lot more at ease right now:o
 
As Scarlett suggests I wouldn't be surprised to see elevated pulses in an newly deshod foot, particularly if some or all of the structures aren't that good. Ambient temperature seems to make a difference too, it's a minefield:) I think there's a clear difference between a raised pulse and a bounding laminitic one though, and there will usually be other signs of trouble too.

A lot of people swear by Top Spec Antilam balancer, which has good levels of biotin and other important ingredients but just to muddy the water (again) there apparently odd horses that are actually set back by it:rolleyes:

I don't know that magic calmer actually gives a particularly high dose of magnesium, you may well see a difference when you get onto mag ox.

It might also be helpful in the short term to try keratex hoof hardener just on the soles, does increase the comfort level quite noticeably.
 
Yann said:
A lot of people swear by Top Spec Antilam balancer, which has good levels of biotin and other important ingredients but just to muddy the water (again) there apparently odd horses that are actually set back by it:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Yes, I have heard of some laminitics who have improved after being taken off top spec. It'd be interesting to know why it causes problems with some horses and whether it was something to do with the balance of minerals. I know it's higher in phosphorus then most other supplements.
 
Montana said:
I really like the idea of getting x-rays done too. Hard facts would put my mind a lot more at ease right now:o
Click to expand...

It is nice to know what the xrays look like inside. If you have the funds, I really recommend it. I guess to some degree without them, one is doing some guesswork. And really a foot with a zero pedal bone angle (flat or ground parallel at the bottom) has particular issues, and trimming/farrier needs can be adjusted to effectively deal with this. This is what we are dealing with for Skeeter's left fore and the xray is so useful.
 
I've always been told by my vets that any sort of discomfort in the feet will cause a raised digital pulse, so bruising, or abscess' will give a raised pulse.
X-rays are useful because they show how thick, or how thin the soles are. If a horse hasn't got a sufficiently thick sole, then it will be uncomfortable for them, rather like us trying to walk over stones with just our socks on, and no shoes!
 
Hi Montana:)

Poor old Monty :(.

Hope he doesn't have laminitis. Hopefully it will just be because you've taken his shoes off.

Where did the vet tell you, you should be feeling for the digital pulse? Theres a pony at my yard with really bad lami, at the moment, and I've been trying to find the digital pulse below the fetlock joint. I can't find it. It doesn't help because the pony has full feathers!

I use MagOx. You can get it off E bay, from a company called Barefoot Basics;)

Good luck. Hope he's well soon x
 
Thanks guys:)

It's such a worry, good to hear that it could be to do with the bruising and nothing more sinister. Will be spending some money this week though - vet out, mag-ox (thanks for the company name Sheryl), keratex:rolleyes::p

Pulses seemed slightly down to me yesterday, and he came into the paddock for a few hours in the afternoon. Will see how he is today now.

Sheryl - the EP showed me to find the pulses either side of the leg, just above the fetlock. If you feel in the 'groove' that runs either side, run your fingers down the groove until you get to the fetlock joint. That's where I've been checking. I had been trying below the joint too, before he came out, but no joy there!
 
Whenever you have inflammation you're going to have an increased pulse in that area, so I wouldn't be surprised to find a raised digital pulse in a horse with puffy fetlocks.

Digital pulses can vary for all sorts of reasons so you need to take a sensible approach. Learn what's normal for him by checking daily at the same time for a week or so. Then when you check them if there's anything different - a big change in temperature, change in grazing, change in exercise, etc, take it into account and see where that leaves you.
 
Not that it'll be the same reason as to why your horse has puffy fetlocks. But yesterday evening when I went to the yard I found raised pulses in both of Martini's fores. Interestingly they had not increased in rate but only in intensity. On closer inspection I saw that from the fetlocks down were puffy, just ever so slightly in that they were squishy to touch. On even closer inspection I saw tiny tiny little black flies that were swarming around there and I did find some bites. She does suffer from sweet itch so the little blighters must have caused the inflammation in that area. And because we had inflammation of course we had increased pulses.

The interesting thing I have noticed is that when it was a problem with her feet her pulses were either easily felt with an increased rate, or faintly felt with an increased rate. They would be like throb,throb,throb,throb.

This time it was not related to her feet and was more like throb....throb....throb.

(Of course that could just be Martini but I thought it was interesting).
 
Thanks Bebe - sensible advice. I'll get a little journal and start recording I think.

Martini - That's interesting. His pulses are slow, with gaps between, like you describe. Wonder if that's relevant. And he does have chapped heels for the first time ever, constant wet grass. Wonder if the puffiness could be related to that too? Will time how many beats per minute tonight.

Yes - in all bar the near hind, just slightly puffy, and squishy to touch. Sounds very similar.
 
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