Ok, I Need Some Serious Advice Here

Hi Fairlady,
I'm another who can sympathise entirely!

I've had Indi 3 yrs now. He's now 4 1/2.

When I got him, he had lived in a stable for months, and had barely any handling. He was a nightmare!!

I couldn't even catch him in a stable! I had to keep a fieldsafe headcollar on him, just so I could get hold of him without getting hurt.
He kicked, bit (really aggressively), reared verticle every time I got him out. Ran through me, knocked me clean off my feet. Had never had his feet touched... He was the absolute worst!

After 5 days, he was castrated, when he attacked the vet savagely:eek:. Then he could start going out. He was slightly sedated to go out, and he went out and ran through the fence. Luckily I'd spent a lot of money on electric fencing, so he didn't actually get hurt.

Since then it has been a long struggle. I have learnt soo much!

People are still very wary of him, so I wasn't able to ask for much help. I didn't want anyone to get hurt either. I have been asked a few times, am I sure he's not a rig. I know he's not, I saw the evidence!

There were many times that I thought "what have I done?". And I can honestly say, I wouldn't have taken him on, had I known.

But now, I'm soo glad I did it:). It is so rewarding when things start to come right. Especially when people comment on the changes:)

Sometimes I felt I wasn't getting anywhere fast. It was often 3 steps forward, and 3 back... But when you look back to the beginning, you can see the vast improvement.

I'd say when I got him he was 100% dangerous, but now, only about 15%:D


Sorry for such a long post, but I know its good to know you're not the only one;)

Good luck with him. Firm and consistent is the way to go.
 
fairlady
Are you sure you know that he was weaned properly?
I only ask because my sister had a highland whos dam died at 3 months old, and he was avery difficult ( but loveable ) character.
It was a problem that he had never really been properly educated and disiplined by his mother, so never really "got "it
Its the same with these puppy farmed dogs that have never learnt from their mums.
He never understood battles, never learnt from them, would do every thing the hard way !
The dominant mare may be a good idea to educate him.
 
Funny you should come up with that one Bluesmum, cos we have sort of come to the conclusion that maybe he was weaned very young, thats it in a nutshell as you and angelfben have said ' he just does not seem to 'get' it' he is not really being naughty as such, its difficult to explain, and he is certainly not 'thick' he just does not 'get it'.

He really does not have a NASTY bone in his body, he just does not get why you want him to do today what he already did for you yesterday, even if it was a bit of a battle then. Perhaps he thinks I will give in as I think he will:p

Trouble is unless you were there right at the beginning you don't know what went before you do you. Who knows where or what happened with him before I had him as a 2 year old. I really don't think he had any 'bad' experiences as such cos he is just sooo curious about everything but he does seem to lack the basic discipline that he would have been taught by others as a youngster. For instance, back in the Summer there was some huge vehicles on the farm laying drainage, all the others ran, Morse came up to the gate to have a good look, no real herd instinct. The other night he was in the field on his own and there was a HUGE and I mean HUGE bonfire going, sparking, quite noisy, my friend said 'Wonder what Morse has made of that' he was stood as close to the gate as possible watching the fire and having a warm, lol, just as I suspected he would be.....

Anyway quick update, have spoken with the Vet, he is due out anyway to give Morse his 2nd Jabs, will talk it all through with me next Thursday and I will decide then after speaking with him and seeing what he has to say as to if I have the blood test or not, though they have already said as some on here have said, they rarely come back as POSITIVE, quite interesting though.
 
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That is very like marlowe was, he would leave the others to get him self into trouble with no idea of herd survival,
Have a book somewhere that touches on the problems of early weaned horses, will look it up
also marlow used to suck on things, like sleeves ect, that then progressed to nibbeling and nipping
 
from Micheal Peace 100% horse
comes under bottle reared, but early weaned counts the same,
" they are not like horses at all, it is as though all thier senses are deadened and they have no fear of the consequences of their behaviour, for them selves or others.often get them selves into scrapes with out learning how to avoid them in future.
Problems arise whenyou get into the training process and need them to be more condierate of others, because they are unconcerned about confrontation they tend not to care about finding a middle groundin which to work with people. they just want to do what they want to do and will often turn to agression to get their own way "
He also says they do not seem problems as foals as they will follow you any were ect,
sounds a lot like your problem.
He also does not offer any advice to work with these horses !
are no hard and fast rules to working with these horses as they are effectively man made"
 
Ha, thats about right, give you the scenario, but not the answer.....:p

Oh well, hopefully I WILL FIND IT, as we go along our merry way;)
 
Hi
read your description of feet picking. How about......
Spread his tea into 2 buckets. Bring him in and let him have 1 (smaller) bucket. Tie him up,or get someone (with lots of time and patience to hold him). Have some chopped carrots/mints etc in your pocket. Pick out first foot then stand still. If he doesnt head toss/fidget, then give him praise and a treat. If he is heady/fidgets, WAIT until he stops. (Stand in a relaxed manner, dont look at him or speak to him - dont do anything - dont give him reaction or attention.) When he is good, give him a Good Boy and treat.Continue round all four feet in the same manner - NOTE - this may well take a serious amount of time the first go. But he should learn that his fidgeting wont get him anywhere. When you have finished, he can have the rest of his tea.
 
Will try that Wonkeywoody thankyou. Tonight I attempted a different tact....
I put him straight into stable to have his food whilst we did the other horses. Carol my YO/Friend asked me if I wanted to bring him out to do his feet and I said No I will go in and do them in stable as he had only just started eating. Anyway he picked each and every foot up for me whilst eating his feed as if he had been doing it forever, except the last foot on which he got a little tetchy, rather than argue with him I let that go and told him he was a good boy, picked one of his front feet up again for a few seconds, put it down and left him to get on with his feed.

But it does show that he knows exactly what I want and just doesn't want to play along and that it is certainly not a balance issue etc.,:D I am a bit more careful about the treats now as he will tend to 'mug' you for them, not nearly as bad as he used to be since doing the carrot stretches etc., with him, but he will tend to get in your face if he thinks you have something tasty on you.

Anyway, its looking good at the moment, feeling a bit more positive after talking to all you lot. Vet is booked for next Thursday, I am gonna do some serious reading this week and look at different methods of training. I have also had a chat with Carol tonight and we have decided that we will give it another Month and then if push comes to shove, throw him in with Sapphire, the very dominant Mare (Coco is the Exmoor Gelding) so she can teach him basic manners if need be and I may also keep him in a paddock on his own, just for a while, with company next door so that he gets to rely on ME more, I know some of you won't agree with that and fair enough you are all obviously entitled to your opinions, however, it will be an option I look at.
 
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For mugging!,
Hold treat in your hand (fisted) put back of hand to his mouth (wear gloves!)
If he tries to bite give a little nudge (thats what his mother would do if he was too rough with her teat except she does it with her hind leg!) When he licks / nuzzles allow him the treat. (Same as his Mum would do!)
 
OK I will try that one as well. He used to mug you in the stable for his food, but knows better now and will back up when asked and will leave me to put his food on the floor and give him the go ahead. See thats what I mean he does learn somethings and retains them very quickly.
 
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Fairlady.....

I've been busy replying to your post on the 'Training the Horse' page, and have only just realised that your problem, as related here, is a great deal bigger than I thought from what I read there, if you see what I mean.

From what you say in this thread I can see that you have some real issues to be sorted out. In fact I think you and Morse are firmly in the wilderness, except you're miles away from each other.

Reading between the lines I would guess that you both need a break from each other. I suspect that Morse is feeling totally confused, and is being asked to do far too much for his age, with little recognition from you that he really is still just a teenager.

I would go as far as to suggest that there may be a clash of personalities in a sense. As he becomes pressured into doing things (as you've described in your posts), he will resist, you will insist, and the whole thing degenerates into the mess you decribe.

I think your options are:

to turn him away for the rest of the winter, preferably in a small herd with mixed gender/aged company, which would allow him time to be a horse with horses. This would help him greatly, particularly if, as you say, he may have missed out on some of the important early socialising which is so important to youngsters.

or, realise that you wind each other up, and that he may be more suited to another owner.

I don't wish to offend you, but I'm beginning to feel sorry for him.

He has become so mistrustful of you, as you say yourself you insist this and dominate that. You should be asking and coaxing and praising, instead of being in his face all the time.

You have made him so afraid of you that he has had to become aggressive in order to cope. You need to back off. I'm afraid you seem to enjoy a fight too much to be good for this horse.

If you really want to make progress with him you must forget about lifting his feet for a while; you said yourself that sometimes he is ok with it, and others not. If you know this you can easily give him a break on the feet-lifting.

I'll try to let you see what I mean by this example:

I bought a three year old filly and her two year old sister a few years ago. The woman who acted as 'middleman' is a bit rough with horses and, against my wishes and without my knowledge, went off herself to load and deliver them to me. When they arrived they were not the same quiet, lovely animals I'd agreed to buy; they were covered in rope burns on their heads and hocks, and had even had ropes through their mouths during the loading.

Several people said I'd have bother loading them after that, and that I should immediately try to put the damage right by trying to load them as soon as possible. Instead, I forgot all about loading and left them both with a kind gelding, and, as they were very afraid of people, I left them to their own devices for a few weeks.

As they began to noticed the trust my gelding had in me, they began to take an interest in me over the next few weeks. As time went on I began to handle them a bit here and there and, over the next few months I gradually got them used to a bit of tack, tying up, and being led about; in fact everything except loading.

After I'd had them for two years, I sold the younger one to a freind and he agreed to cover the other with his stallion for me. The day they went to his place was the first time, since they came to me, that they had seen a box. They walked on without a moment's hesitation.

The reason for that was that everything I'd done with them had helped them to trust me, so that when the time came to load they had enough faith in me to allow themselves to go where I asked them to.

So you see, you need to stop fixating on the feet-lifting, find other, fun, stress-free things for you both to do and enjoy, forget about fighting and winning, and allow your young horse to begin to trust you.

Then you can reap the rewards
 
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Hi AengusOg, :D You are of course entitled to your opinion but I don't see how he can be asked to be doing too much at 2 1/2. At the end of the day he is turned out with another gelding from 7 - 4, brought in by headcollar on an evening, fed, given ad lib hay and water, is then stabled and put out again the following morning.

In between he is asked each evening to lift his feet to be picked out and if he is dry he is groomed. Occasionally, he may be taken around the farm on his headcollar to see different things, and once or twice we have ventured out of the yard to see the lane and other farms:D Other than that at the moment he is left to enjoy himself with Bailey in the field, I don't know how much you know of Morse or I but basically I have owned him now for 5 months and he arrived with next to no handling, which is all we have been working on really, I certainly have not been PUSHING him, far from it in fact. I am quite adamant that his happiness and comfort are my priority and it doesn't worry me one iota if he is backed this year or next, in fact nothing will be done before I feel he is ready, but basic handling is a necessity not a nicety although hopefully it can be both. He is more than happy to have his headcollar on and be walked out and about, just not having his feet done. When I initially had him he would walk right through OR OVER you, and I mean literally, or he would Rear and lash out with his front foot, he doesn't do that anymore far more respectful, but that is down to firm and consistant handling and then you do have to move on. Initially I spent hours and I mean hours with him in the field, just sitting and bonding and letting him come to me rather than the other way around. I whistle and he comes running, leaving the others as he was in with then, to come over to me, so he is not scared of me....

Work with him has not even started at the basics as yet. However, thanks for your reply. I have read your reply of Training the Horse and yes, you do make some comments that make sense. If you have read my earlier posts on this thread you will have read that tonight I managed to do 3 of his feet without the twitching, or incidently, anyone stood at his head. I would also be the first to admit that it has all been a steep learning curve for both Morse and I, and yes I have made some mistakes, hands up, but hopefully have realised and done my utmost to put them right. I have a young horse that would like to be TOTALLY dominant, not just with me but with the other very experienced person that is dealing with him, so that is what we have to work on, if allowed to continually display this behaviour he would IMO take only a short period of time to come potentially dangerous, I woud like to also say that I certainly do not think of Morse as a teenager exhibiting teenager behaviour, he still is very much a BABY. If I honestly thought Morse was scared or frightened of having his feet lifted I would give him the break, but he isn't as he has shown tonight and it also is not that 'I enjoy the battle' its not, don't you honestly think I would just love it if I asked and he handed me his foot, of course I don't want to battle with him, but I cannot just let him get away with it either, he would once again attempt to walk all over me, I always give him the option, he just chooses not to take the easy option and believe me I wish he would and we could move on.

I would also just like to say DON'T 'read between the lines', read what is written cos that is what I mean, and how the situation is. I actually don't have a fixation on his feet, lol, but at 2 1/2 and having never seen a farrier, I would like his feet looked at, there are others on here who would think it is almost 'neglect' to have a horse of that age that had never been seen by a farrier, lol.
 
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Hi FL really sorry you've been having such a time with the little fella, I can't offer any advise but would like to say I'm sure with your perseverance and probably lots and lots of hard work from you and him you'll both have a great time together eventually, you did really well with his feet, keep it up :D
 
Fair play to you Fairlady

Your original post asked for serious advice...........that's what I gave you.

I really do hope you can sort this out. :)
 
and of course, it was appreciated AengusOg, some of which was very good
advice with some good points raised as well:D;)
 
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Just a quick update to say that I took some advice from the Training The Horse page given by PL;) Yeah, I get it, it works:D Thankyou;)

Will continue to use this method and keep you all updated next week when the vet sees him.
 
if it's any consolation FL the two people with youngsters on ym yard are having a s?@t time with their youngsters at the moment too.

I think it's doubly hard when it's cold,raining and dark. They feel fine and we feel pants! Time to try to take advantage!!!!
 
Just to update you all. Vet arrived today (was informed it would be Duncan, and then some female turns up:D). Anyway she has a good grope and look at Morse and apparently there are two definate scars - decided there and then NOT to have him blood tested regarding his being a Rig:D However, can obviously have it done along the lines should I so decide to do it, cannot see much point......

Morse, bless him, stood there like butter would not melt, (well I did have a mineral lick He was going at for all it was worth), so he just had his jabs and I also requested that she take some fur brushings and scrapings to check for parasites, mites etc., as he just cannot seem to stop itching, I treated him for lice but it made no difference so we will see if anything comes back on that.

I have however, started doing some training with him which PinksLady advised on 'Training the Young Horse', and it is working, :)D thankyou PL) PLUS, I have to say Morse seems to be enjoying it, which is an added bonus. plus I am frantically reading about 'clicker training' ready to start with that shortly.

I have to say he was a little star today, he had been left in the stable on his own whilst all the others had been turned out and was quite happy when I strolled in at 09.30, chomping on his ever increasing haynet:D He roamed around the yard whilst I got on with mucking out and he kept popping in to nuzzle and watch me and pull my hat off, cos he hates it, then off he would go again.......until the vet arrived and then he was excellent with her whilst she did the necessaries and stood chatting for ages:D I then turned him out, and boy was it windy, we walked by the Sillage Pit and a huge piece of black plastic blew up right next to him and he honestly did not even flinch....... Gonna give him a month and see how it goes, if his demeanour improves great, if he still is a bit too big for his boots will put him out with SAPPHIRE, she who must be obeyed. lol.

He did not PUSH, BARGE, BITE, NIP, GRAB ANYONES COAT SLEEVE, LASH OUT WITH FRONT FOOT OR ANYTHING:D:D:p I was actually Proud of my boy today.
 
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Sounds like a Nelson :p only Nelson was very aggressive if he knew he could :eek: He was brought knowing he was a rig and now he is just like any normal gelding :) (mardy daft and easily intimated...give him 'the look' and his tail is between his legs...typical man :p)

didnt read your previous post sorry :p, maybe the word 'vet' or possibly 'operation' scared him into being a good little boy :p:p
 
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Glad he was a good boy today, and excelled himself for the vet:).

Is he turned out all summer? You'll probably see a big difference then;)
 
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