Palomino - Breed? Colour? Both?

Funky MeerKAT

Funky MeerKAT

Life without horses??
May 27, 2005
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New Zealand
I always thought that there was a breed of Palomino as well as a colour, but I have just read in a couple of sites that it is not a breed, only a colour!! I am sure that I have always read in books of horse breeds that it is a breed.

Very confused!! Can anyone help?

Thanks

palomino.jpg
 
PALOMINO IS DEFINATELY NOT A BREED!
It is a colour, by expressing genes inherited from its parents.

Palomino occurs when a horse with a base colour is chestnut and it inherits one cream gene. Cream is always expressed and it only dilutes red so has no effect on black. For example buckskin is a bay with 1 cream gene also.

Because of this palominos do not breed true (you wont always get a palomino out of crossing 2 palominos together 25% chestnut, 50% palomino, 25% cremello)

Palomino (or more accurately the cream gene) is found in many different breeds, most common in QH and Welsh at least in my country (NZ).

Some books do indeed say palomino is a breed. This is really annoying to anyone who works in genetics or works with horse colours. There is a lot of misinformation out there.

Also many books say that the halflinger breed is palomino, but it is merely homozygous for flaxen meaning every horse will inherit the flaxen gene. If halflingers were palomino, you would get chestnut and cremello individuals also.

There are many great sites online which are easy to find. Occasionally you come across inaccuracies in these but if you want to learn how colour works they are a great place to start.

I hope I have been of some help. If you want more info dont be afraid to ask :)
 
http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47377&highlight=dilute+genes For an explanation of how cream works to give palominos, and why, as Nicole says, they cannot be classed as a breed.

Palominos occur in several breeds - like Welsh ponies. Hafflingers, although some call them palomino (there's one registered with teh palomino society :rolleyes: ) are not - they're chestnut, which is how they come to breed true for colour.

As the post I've linked to will explain, a breed will always breed true, and have definite characteristics - like Welsh A x Welsh A = Welsh A. Palominos not only occur in several vastly different breeds (like Welsh A and Warmblood) and so don't breed true to type but they don't breed true for colour either. There's only ever a 50% chance of breeding a palomino from a palomino, even if you breed two together.
 
Thanks guys, very interesting!! I have never really thought about it, just read it in a few books when I was younger and assumed that books would be right, never though more of it. Then someone in another site posted that palominos were not a breed and I was like 'what?' thats new to me. But it does make sense now that I think about it, in most breeds there are more traits than just colour, (conformation, temperament, etc) when I think about it all the palominos I have seen are totally different.

Thanks for clearing that up!! I can now go and spread the word lol.
 
I thought that Palomino was a specific breed in the US.

If this is the case then not all offspring will be able to be registered but it wouldn't be the only stud book to discriminate against colour
 
There is a palomino breeders association in the US - not sure if they class it as a breed or not, but genetically, palominos are chestnut horses with one cream dilute gene - it is wholly colour and not breed related. Unfortunately even the palomino societies can be incredibly innaccurate about these horses at times. The following quotes are extracts from the palomino horse association.

"Many feel that Palomino is only a color and not a breed, which is true that the color of Palomino comes in all breeds, but the Palomino of Spanish times the Golden Dorado, was as close to being a breed as any strain of horse. The Dorado was of Arabic-Moorish-Spanish blood and breeding, closely akin to the Arabian and the Moorish Barb. The Palomino of Spanish times was not bred by being crossed with sorrels. The Spanish had many shades of golden horses, and when they did use "Corral Breeding" a light color Palomino mare would be mated with a very dark-colored Palomino stallion. This point has been noted in an old book and printed in Barcelona in 1774."

Ok, so if you want to take writings from 1774 as gospel, they bred palominos from palominos and got nothing but palomino. Genetically that's wholly innaccurate. There is only ever a 50% chance of getting palomino from pallomino x palomino - fact. So half the palominos they bred would have been palomino - the other half would have been sorrel (or chestnut) and cremello - obviously it wasn't noted what happened to them ;) . Another interesting point is that there is no cream gene in the Arab breed. Arabs don't carry that particular mutation. Any palomino you find advertised as Arabian will have had the cream introduced via another breed at some point in their breeding - so the Dorado was really a mongrel horse itself.

" In the last few years we have opened our doors to creme colored horse with blue eyes. It has been researched and proven that these light colored Palominos always produce a Palomino. Therefore, they are definite breeding stock for the Palomino. "

Or cremellos, as they in fact are. And yes, crossed with a chestnut they will indeed throw palomino every time, because they are chestnut with two cream genes themselves, so have to pass on cream when put to a chestnut and give palomino. However they will also throw buckskin, smoky black, perlino, smoky cream and cremello if put to a bay, black, smoky black, buckskin or palomino. So they are only definite breeding stock for palomino is used exclusively on chestnut mares. And the palomino offspring they produce still only have a 50% chance of passing on cream to their offspring.
 
Yes Chev, I understand all of the colour stuff - what I am saying is that not every breed society accepts all horses even if their pedigree proves that they are actually of the correct parentage (ie. no blue eyed connemaras are allowed to be registered therefore no cremello or perlino ponies but pallys & buckskins are allowed so we know that the cream gene does exist, just full creams are not able to be registered) - could it not be that a palomino breed would be treated in the same way ie. cremellos & chestnuts not accepted, only pallys can actually be registered.
 
Absolutely. The palomino society here won't accept buckskins, sooty palominos, or double dilutes of any kind, just like the Welsh Pony and Cob Society won't accept loud sabinos.

My point is that regardless of society registration rules, palominos don't breed true - and breed, whether bred for colour or not, must breed true to type at least. And there is no one type of palomino at all.

Same with tobianos - CHAPS register all coloureds, regardless of type. They don't register solid horses born to coloured parents. So they refuse registration on grounds of colour too - just like some breed standards. But again, it is a colour society - not a breed society, just like the palomino societies.

The Bristish Palomino Society inspects horses for colour, nothing else. That is a colour society, not a breed society. You could start a register for bays, based on the same premise - but bay would still be a colour, not a breed. Same with the dun society. Duns are not regarded as a breed either.

You could conceivably develop a horse that breeds true to type, that has a high percentage of cream in it, and call it Palomino, and refuse registration of anything but single dilute chestnuts (ie palominos) - but as it stands, none of the Palomino societies do that, so no, it really can't be classed as a breed.
 
when i think Palamino i think colour, but i guess it is a breed to! i mean like every horse book i read, it always says it both, but it can be any breed), so really i would say both, but you make the call!
 
I've always counted it as both: The palomino breed have a certain conformation, like any other breed would. It's always colored palomino too, hence, it's the palomino breed. But the palomino color can appear in other breeds too, even when the horse is pure. Morgans, Thoroughbreds, Arabians, Quarter Horses, Welshs, Saddlebreds, Tennese Walking Horses, Mustangs, and Brumbies are the most common breeds to have the color, but I think that every breed can have it. So it is a breed, but he color of the breed can appear in other breeds, just not as much. Pintos and appaloosas are also colored breeds.
 
Not every breed can be palomino, no. Arabs can't, Hafflingers, most of the draft breeds, Cleveland Bays, most UK natives barring Shetlands and Welsh, Friesians... none of them carry the cream gene, and that's only a few of the breeds that don't.

If there is a type of horse that could be classed as palomino, it's still not true to say it's always palomino even - the genes just don't work that way. Half of them will be palomino, a quarter will be chestnut, and a quarter will be cremello. Palomino does not, and never will, breed true for colour. That's genetics.
 
Color. Breeding two palominos together (as far as I know) cannot create a palomino.

Plus, there is obviously the fact that the horse in that picture is indeed, not a QH, one of the most common breeds to have palomino coloring. The people who made the breed registry are idiots.

Palomino morgan:
darkpaloMorgan.jpg

Palomino quarter horse:
GOLDEN-CAANTENDER2.jpg

Paloimino TB (Dreaming of Gold is his name)
TitusSp04.jpg


Definately not a breed, definately not a 'type' or a 'build'. Thats like saying all grey horses must be built like warmbloods.
 
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Just.Jump said:
Color. Breeding two palominos together (as far as I know) cannot create a palomino.
Click to expand...

Yes, it can.

Palomino is chestnut (ee) with cream (C)

Two palominos will breed eeCc (palomino), eeCC (cremello), or eecc (chestnut).

So palomino x palomino will give a 25% chance of chestnut, a 25% chance of cremello, and a 50% chance of palomino.

Still not a breed though :p
 
Ive always thought it as a colour and not a breed, but now on to what i initially wanted to post on this thread for! ...
What is the difference between a Palomino and a Chestnut with a flaxen mane and tail?
For eg, what colour is the mare that ive attached?
 
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She could be either! It's almost impossible to tell by looking whether it's a dark palomino or a flaxen chestnut. There are three indicators - first would be breed... if it's a Hafflinger for example, it's flaxen chestnut. Likewise any other breed that doesn't carry cream, like Arabs, and so on. Next is parentage; If it has at least one dilute parent (so buckskin, palomino, cremello etc) it could be palomino. If there's no dilute parent, then it's not palomino. Third (and the only reliable way in some cases) is to have a genetic test for cream done.
 
i personally think your mare looks like a palamino !! i cant see up close as sometimes can depend on skin colour ! so dnt take word !! but from the pic she looks like that! i see what you mean she could be a chestnut with a flaxen mane and tail !!! :)
 
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