Position and effectiveness

[Feawen]

How happy are you to compromise your riding position in the interests of effectiveness?

As a young rider I was taught that effective riding comes from a good position. That is, an independant seat, sitting straight in the saddle with my core muscles (more-or-less) engaged, my legs underneath me, soft elbows and closed hands. Correct riding allows the horse to work correctly, and that is how I *try* to ride.

In my recent (RS) lessons I have been encouraged to adapt my position to suit different horses and circumstances. Is this something you do? How would you feel about being asked to do it?

What do you think of these examples?

1. On a green, unbalanced horse you are advised to take a light seat when asking for canter, because he has learnt to hollow his back through the transition.

2. On a more educated horse you are advised to shorten the reins and carry your hands further forward, even if this means straightening the arms, to discourage him from coming too deep and leaning on the bit.

Would you have a problem with either, both, or neither?

Just to add - I have a lot of respect for my RI and am not meaning to criticize. She has never asked me to do anything I can't justify, and I've seen her ride her young project horse very tactfully and well. I'm just reviewing some long-held opinions at the moment and would like some outside advice

 

[Trewsers]

As a novice I am interpreting your questions as to mean, do you adapt your position to suit the particular horse? If this is so, then yes, I would and do.

 

[kathyt1]

1. On a green, unbalanced horse you are advised to take a light seat when asking for canter, because he has learnt to hollow his back through the transition.

I can understand this, although I would also ask is the horse ready for canter if it is doing this?

2. On a more educated horse you are advised to shorten the reins and carry your hands further forward, even if this means straightening the arms, to discourage him from coming too deep and leaning on the bit.

This I don't understand so much. Carrying your hands slightly higher if the horse has a more advanced head carraige perhaps. If you straighten the arms you will lose the soft contact to the bit which could possibly cause the problems you are supposed to be avoiding.

 

[selside]

Yes. I do think there are occasions where you need to adapt. Us RS riders can get too obsessive about the 'correct' position and looking exactly right. (Probably because it's important to us to advance, to learn well and to become better riders.)

I try hard not to forget it's about comfort, understanding and effectiveness for the horse - it's not all about me............

I find that different horses 'invite' me to ride them in certain ways. My old share Connie really asked to be ridden with my hands lower and nearer to me, my body classically upright and weight well down and back. He had been ridden mainly by a pensioner who had a traditional riding style and did a of showing where she was used to letting the horse's action do the talking.

When I'm working with a younger and smaller pony he takes confidence from me having my hands (and leg) further forward and more clearly 'showing' him what's wanted, with a centre of balance fractionally more forward. Sorry, doubt that makes much sense!

All I mean is some horses do need you to adapt. After all, there is no one size fits all position or riding style. That's clear from all the posts on here.

 

[LindaAd]

How happy are you to compromise your riding position in the interests of effectiveness?

As a young rider I was taught that effective riding comes from a good position. That is, an independant seat, sitting straight in the saddle with my core muscles (more-or-less) engaged, my legs underneath me, soft elbows and closed hands. Correct riding allows the horse to work correctly, and that is how I *try* to ride.

In my recent (RS) lessons I have been encouraged to adapt my position to suit different horses and circumstances. Is this something you do? How would you feel about being asked to do it?

What do you think of these examples?

1. On a green, unbalanced horse you are advised to take a light seat when asking for canter, because he has learnt to hollow his back through the transition.

2. On a more educated horse you are advised to shorten the reins and carry your hands further forward, even if this means straightening the arms, to discourage him from coming too deep and leaning on the bit.

Would you have a problem with either, both, or neither?

Just to add - I have a lot of respect for my RI and am not meaning to criticize. She has never asked me to do anything I can't justify, and I've seen her ride her young project horse very tactfully and well. I'm just reviewing some long-held opinions at the moment and would like some outside advice

Interesting question, Feawen. I wouldn't have a problem with (1) because that doesn't seem to alter your basic position. With (2), I think I'd be inclined to experiment a bit, to see if I could get the same effect without straightening my arms - maybe just softening the hands or opening the fingers. I'm not sure I understand the reasons for shortening reins + moving hands forward: it looks as if the two thngs would cancel each other out.

 

[Feawen]

Thanks for your answers - and keep 'em coming! I'll be back later with some proper replies

 

[joosie]

How happy are you to compromise your riding position in the interests of effectiveness?

Good topic :smile:

I think you only have to look at photos of the world's top riders, in any discipline, to see how people can have very different positions to others and still produce horses to the same level and achieve the same goals. Look up someone like Annette Lewis and compare her style to other top showjumpers of that period, IMO her riding looked hideous but there's no denying it worked for her and her horses. Some things that aren't textbook prove to be very effective! We have a local rider who does something similar with his legs (though not to Annette's extreme!) and he is one of France's most sought-after young horse producers.

It's something I've considered a lot in the last few years - the type of riding I've done and the type of horses I've done it on has varied quite a lot, so I've learned through my experiences (including many unpleasant ones!!) the importance of being able to adapt your riding to suit the horse and the circumstances. I do feel that in order to be a "good rider" you need those core elements (independent seat, good balance, lack of physical tension etc) and to a great extent what is considered "correct position" is tied in to those basics. However I also think that beyond that, riders also need to be able to adapt certain aspects of their position as and when necessary. And I do believe it is necessary quite often.

I never had riding lessons, I learned to ride by hacking out & falling off a lot, so nobody ever taught me the "correct" way of doing things and I developed a riding style that was effective but would probably have a BHS instructor reaching for the shotgun. Put it this way, the way I rode was (usually) effective for me in the circumstances I found myself in. However, hacking is very different to schooling and requires a different set of skills. You don't worry about a perfect leg position when you are trying to deal with a horse napping in the middle of the road or trying to bomb off across a field! - and equally the position you may adopt in those situations, and which probably makes the difference between staying on and eating dirt, isn't going to be appropriate or desirable in a dressage lesson.

Before I got my job here I was mostly a hacking & playing around sort of rider... I could do basic schooling but didn't really have any of the skills required to educate horses or improve their way of going, I didn't know how to work a horse correctly or teach them something new. I have never had any illusions about my ability in terms of "technical" riding, I considered myself to be a competent rider but not what I would call a skilled one.

Then when I came to France and started getting tuition on my boss's schoolmaster Jam - learning how to work him correctly and attempting movements very new to me - I learned very quickly just what I was good at and what drastically needed to change (and there was a lot of it!). Things that were effective for me out hacking needed to be altered for schooling. There were also things essential for good schooling that I couldn't do at all. But probably the most interesting aspect of it was the fact that there were some things I thought needed to be changed but my boss felt they were okay, and some the things I thought were okay she said they needed to be changed :help:

It was quite confusing to start with, as I was being taught to ride in a very different way to what I was used to. Sometimes things went well and I felt like I'd learned / achieved / improved something... other times I felt like a crap rider or was overwhelmed with the knowledge of just how much I still have to learn before I'm the rider I'd like to be! But as my riding progressed and I began to master the new skills, I started to feel more confident about it. But then I "graduated" to younger and/or more difficult horses, and suddenly had to do things differently, and there was the confusion all over again!

Will stop rambling about myself as I'm not sure if it's quite answering the question :giggle: In summary I'd say I am (now) quite happy to have a less-than-perfect position if I'm finding it effective and seeing results.

 

[LBrider]

I find that different horses 'invite' me to ride them in certain ways

Yes, this. Although I am too inexperienced to interpret exactly what they are suggesting I do, in order to get the best from them. To add something else to the mix, it's interesting how when riding at an RS, a particular horses 'reputation' affects how you ride from before you even get in the saddle

 

[eml]

I can sit 'prettily' if I need to but if I am 'working' with a horse I tend to use the most effective position at any moment which may not look correct...equally if out for a jolly may use my old fashioned security seat!!

I agree totally with working young horse in light seat, I seldom would advocate sitting trot with youngsters for the same reason.

Not sure about the hand forward but I can see some logic. I have very short forearms and so my arms are often straighter than ideal, I don't think it causes an issue as long as the elbows are still mobile and shoulders relaxed. Without seeing the horse and rider concerned I am not sure what is being suggested but it sounds like the sort of situation where I tell the rider to think of pushing the horses nose forward and the poll down, often pushing hands forward and slightly more apart (but not dropping!!) while using leg will achieve this.

 

[Thyme & Me]

I was having a lesson on my 3 year old the other day. I seem to have started 'swinging' along to keep her moving forward. I questioned this and my RI said that I was riding 'effectively' and I could 'worry about pretty later...". So I guess that means yes to your original question!

 

[Feawen]

Hello again

Right. So. Last night I lost four hours work due to computer-related stupidity. Sorry for walking out on this discussion, but really I was only capable of uttering hideous curses yesterday.

I guess some adaptability on how we ride / sit is always going to be necessary. There couldn't be much communication between horse and rider if we didn't respond to whatever the horse is doing! And, to give a really obvious example, I wouldn't jump an XC fence in the same position I use for shoulder in. Not successfully anyway

But sometimes the line is more blurry. I have no problem with the first example I gave above. It's unfortunate that this young horse has learned to hollow through the canter transition, but he has, and this strategy of taking a light seat is helping to break the pattern. I can see the advantage to the horse and it helps us both feel more balanced and secure.

I'm not quite so happy with the second example. It "worked" in that the horse's poll came up and his nose came out a little. BUT (as Kathyt1 already said) I lost the light but consistent connection that comes from soft elbows and shoulders. I also felt this had a knock-on effect: straightening my arms tensed my shoulders and upper body, and I was less able to absorb the horse's movement. I had to really put my leg on to keep him coming through from behind, which seems unfair when I was blocking him!

EML - I will have a think about what you have said, possibly this is what my RI was getting at? The instruction was definitely to bring my hands forward and shorten the reins to bring the horse's head up (with leg on). I can experiment next time I ride that horse.

Joosie - thanks for sharing your experiences. I think I'm on a similarly unsettling learning curve .

 

[OwnedbyChanter]

I ride various horses at my yard as I love to school and I am a very quite gentle rider so I have been told) but I adapt to each horse to a point. The young one I ride light of seat as she is still learning and developing the correct muscle and I want her to feel she can move, she also has a very soft mouth so I am checking my contact all the time.

The other 17h horse is very heavy in the hand needs loads more leg and you have to work him to the bridle once there you need leg to keep him there, with him I take the position I want to work from and work her until she comes to me.

My lad I do as your RI said I have to take a shorter rein but 'push' my hands forward inviting him to push in to the bridle and work through from behind. He is most advance of all the horses I ride and this really works for him.

Keeping a higher hand position (as in not on the withers) and slightly move forward does not effect my shoulders or make me tense through my back I guess as we work this way all the time I am use to staying soft, When she say push your hands forward I am sure she does not mean lock them out straight but just push them away from you.