Punishment

Yann said:
I personally think a lot of punishment as applied to horses by horse owners can be more about relieving the owner's frustration than teaching the horse anything. Does slapping your horse when its naughty make it behave better in the long run or do you have to keep on slapping for the same old things?
It also often only addresses the symptoms of any issue rather than the causes, and can breed resentment and mistrust, and make some horses nervous or headshy. Not all by any means, but that's a tribute to how tolerant horses are.

I've always tried hard never to lose my temper or hit horses, and if something is going wrong with one I try and do something that will add to the situation, which often involves moving its feet to where you want them rather than where the horse does. However if I was put in a situation of danger then I'd have no compunction in doing whatever I needed to do to stay safe, anything else would be stupid.

I also don't buy in to the 'horses do it to each other so why shouldn't we' argument. Physical contact is usually the very last thing that happens between horses as wasting energy fighting and damaging each other doesn't make sense in evolutionary terms other than perhaps for breeding stallions. We're also ostensibly a lot more intelligent and should be able to do better :)
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I agree with most of what you said there except this:We're also ostensibly a lot more intelligent and should be able to do better :)
 
ive not read all the thread (my head hurts after a party...why do i do this to myself?) but i tend to flatly ignore curly when shes demanding attention, she no longer beats the door at dinnertime so i must be doing something right.
She does get a sharp slap if she headbuts or waves a front leg in the air (she temporarily blinded my friend doing it - very scary).
 
Sparky used to be of the charging and barging variety. The only way I could keep myself safe was a sharp (but not hard) smack to keep her away. Now, her manners are better, and she always always knows if shes being naughty. Shes a very sensitive, but also very dominant mare, and does push her boundaries. I just pull faces back at her, and it works.

Tally does occasionally get a smack. He rubs his head on people, and will nibble on arms/legs/feet if hes being ignored. I will verbally reprimand him first, then if he does it again, he gets a smack. It's mostly all noise, but he is learning that some behaviour is not acceptable. He did try and bite me once, because I was taking too long with food. I ran straight back at him, waving my arms and chasing him backwards. He pinned his ears and reared, so he really got chased. I spent about 10 minutes chasing him around the paddock and he's never tried it again.
 
ClaireBear_nz said:
he is learning that some behaviour is not acceptable. He did try and bite me once, because I was taking too long with food. I ran straight back at him, waving my arms and chasing him backwards. He pinned his ears and reared, so he really got chased. I spent about 10 minutes chasing him around the paddock and he's never tried it again.
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God, I do hope no one saw you Claire... they'd have called the psychiatric hospital!!!! :D ;)
 
Really disagree with what was said about a horse loosing its trust in you, if you hit it. If a horse gets kicked by another horse that doesn't mean that it will never trust that horse again, so why should it be different for humans?

Anyway, I don't think there is anything wrong with hitting (or smacking or whatever you want to call it) a horse, if it is done sharply and the horse has a fair chance to understand what it was all about. There is nothing more important than your own life and if a horse invades my private space and/or threatens me and doesn't respond to me telling it to back off it gets a smack. I like using the end of the leadrope as that gives you more reach, especially if you are faced with their hindquarters or teeth :). If done right and quickly enough, it usually only needs to be done once or twice in their lifes, so I can't see how that will do much harm.

Constant beating for something the horse doesn't understand or is afraid of is a different matter.
 
As for hitting a horse losing his trust; that depends on how, why and when the horse was hit. It did no harm at all to my relationship with Andy to thump him for grabbing me; he has no trust issues at all.

Now, if I'd hit him without good reason, or if I'd continued to hit him after the situation had been resolved... then yes, trust would be lost. But the punishment fit the crime in his case - and as a result, his trust and respect for me as his handler actually benefitted from what happened. Had I not put him back in his place, he'd be walking all over me by now.
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Thanks cvb. That's what I wanted to say, but you've said it far better then I could. :o Abuse is punishment without reason. Punishment is quite effective for eliminating bad behaviours. Coquette has gotten whacks from me before both under saddle and on the ground when she's deserved them. One day she flat out refused to canter. There was no pain, no reason to not canter, she was being lazy and didn't want to do it. So she got a good whack. Since then, she's gone right off the leg with the slightest touch for me. But she still happily comes up and nuzzles me when I go to the field.
 
Old instructer got a whip out and hit a pony (hard!) 3 times after it repeatedly threw me off :o

Would never do that, but beleve you must be firm but kind around horses, and a little tap on the shoulder with the whip is ok when pony is in 'Pony does what pony wants' mood :P
 
I think there are two different things getting mixed up here, I don't think anyone would argue that hitting a horse that had hold of you with its teeth or was about to flatten you would be unreasonable.

However slapping or hitting for things like space invasion, not standing still, mugging and other general 'misbehaviours' is a different matter for me. Like I posted before if you keep on punishing your horse for the same things over and over again then it isn't working and you need to look further. Does the horse actually understand what is expected of it? Has it been taught the desirable behaviour? Is the handler always consistent, ie allowing something in one context but not in another? Horses aren't born polite and understanding queen's english, too many people seem to assume they are. They're animals with a very different view of the world to ours and we need to make it clear what we expect of them, in a way they can understand. In my limited experience if you do that their naturally cooperative nature means that after a while everything gets easier for everyone and there's no need to punish any more.
 
I've never smacked Cherry - she will respond to a growl from me... if she thinks she has upset me she can't do enough to make amends bless her. And I don't growl very often either... don't need to.

My biggest gripe with Ludo to date is that he is not happy to have his back legs handled and will stamp them and kick out. He usually does the kick in slow motion - to warn me or will kick out quickly if I'm not in the way - again a warning - but sooner or later my luck will run out and I'm sure he will get me. He has had a couple of smacks on the bum and a growl following a kick out and this will settle him down and allow me to continue handling his leg (always finishing on a positive note) but the next day we revert to type again. Still I'm sure that this will settle... have only had the little chap 8 weeks so we are both learning to trust each other. I'm hoping that in time, he will associate my growl as being punishment enough.
 
What I disagree with now a days is hitting a hoerse or kicking when he's not doing what you want, so say you want the horse to go forwards and it won't a lot of people will kick there horse on or whip it, thats why I couldn't bare at my riding school I had before I got into NH, kick, kick, kcik or whip him was the main instructions:( knowing what I know now it makes me sick to think of it........I can't stand that, if a horse is coming at you with its teeth trying to bite you, well you have to do what you have to do to protect your self, no arguments there.........
 
MG - totally agree with you. I don't buy the 'horses do it to each other so it's ok' argument as a whole, but I do think what that shows us is that in certain circumstances that kind of response is one that horses do understand, and which is highly unlikely to damage our relationship with said horse.

But with regard to invading my space and other 'careless' behaviours, I personally wouldn't punish that. I feel that's more of a communication problem, and that punishment is unlikely to solve it in most cases.

As for punishing behaviour that arises from a lack of confidence or trust on teh horse's part (like some napping, for example) - all you'll do is make the problem worse.
 
but I do think what that shows us is that in certain circumstances that kind of response is one that horses do understand, and which is highly unlikely to damage our relationship with said horse.
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Good point well made :) But even in those circumstances it may be possible to find an alternative stimulus which achieves the same result without actually resorting to striking the horse, such as a loud noise or visual pressure of some kind. But that's more of an ethical rather than practical choice.
 
If a horse behaves in an aggressive way then I will react in kind - if a pony I am leading bites then it will get a tap on the nose with the end of the lead rope because if he tried to bite a dominant horse he would get a bite back! In general I don't hold with shouting and smacking but I Am Not A Chew Toy:)

However when it all depends on where the behaviour is coming from. If a nervous horse tries to nip because he wants me to stop grooming him I will ignore the behaviour and carry on grooming and talking in a calm voice until he settles down. I think that reacting aggressively in this kind of situation only reinforces the idea that people are scary.
 
ClaireBear_nz said:
He did try and bite me once, because I was taking too long with food. I ran straight back at him, waving my arms and chasing him backwards. He pinned his ears and reared, so he really got chased. I spent about 10 minutes chasing him around the paddock and he's never tried it again.
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Thats exactly the same as a friend of mine. When she gets a new horse, or is training something that pushes the boundaries she uses a similar approach. To start with she will raise her voice and make her body language big. If they repeat the action the same thing will happen. If they do it a third time (as in try to bite, kick or something that would put her in physical danger) then she will run 'at' them, hands waving, shouting etc if she has something she can crash about to make a loud noise she does. However she makes sure she reacts as soon as the horse threatens her. The moment the horse stops threatening her, she stops, continues what she was initially doing and will then go and make friends with the horse again a moment later.
Like someone (chev?) mentioned earlier, similar to a mother with a foal.
If the horse is just being a nusiance, like refusing to stand still when being groomed, my friend might shout on make her body language big, but she would never hit or smack for something minor.

For me personally I take a big of a "three strikes and your out" approach. Similar to my friend I'll shout and make myself big the first two times, the third time then I make 'smack' I don't go as all out as my friend, because I'm not training youngsters or trying to assert myself with a new horse, I'm just reinforcing behaviour that they already know and conviently forget :rolleyes:

I do try and correct behaviour before it happens though. When I enter a stable, if the horse does not automatically walk back a step, then I will make my body language in such a manner to tell them to walk back, or give a gentle push to ask them to take a step back. It is not punishing, but trying to correct them before the enter my personal space.

When riding I have a different approach. I don't smack with a stick, because my whip is my training aid to ask them to move forward, so I use my voice a "No!" or "ah ah" and then when they get the movment right they get a "goooood" and a scratch. I rarely let anyone record/ watch me when I ride because it goes along the lines of "no! ah ah, good! there! there! goood" ah, no! don't lose it, there! good boy! *high pitched voice* what a good boy! how clever are you! whos gonna be the cleverest olympic pony ever?!?! :o " followed by the transition back and lots of pats.

ETA - for me it also depends on the horse. One horse I ride there is no way I ould ever do anything more than a raised voice, because he would just fall to pieces (hes a wimp!) however theres another bolshy horse I help with and I have to be much firmer and make myself very clear as the horse pushes the boundarys as much as possible and isn't at all worried about being shouted at.

Whoops! long post, sorry! As you can tell this is a topic I'm quite enthusiastic about :o I love finding out how peoples methods are different to mine
 
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Yann said:
However slapping or hitting for things like space invasion, not standing still, mugging and other general 'misbehaviours' is a different matter for me. Like I posted before if you keep on punishing your horse for the same things over and over again then it isn't working and you need to look further. Does the horse actually understand what is expected of it? Has it been taught the desirable behaviour? Is the handler always consistent, ie allowing something in one context but not in another? Horses aren't born polite and understanding queen's english, too many people seem to assume they are. They're animals with a very different view of the world to ours and we need to make it clear what we expect of them, in a way they can understand. In my limited experience if you do that their naturally cooperative nature means that after a while everything gets easier for everyone and there's no need to punish any more.
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Oh definitely. Certainly if you're using punishment and it's not working, then you need to rethink what you're doing, but that goes for anything to do with a horse. Some horses learn that biting gets a slap and after a couple of times, they stop doing it. Some horses need a different approach. That doesn't mean that slapping/tapping/whatever you want to call it never works and should never be used.

My friend has an 8 or 9 year old gelding. Beautiful Morgan, tall and carries himself well. Even when he hasn't been touched with a brush in months, he looks fantastic. And he's got the manners of a hog. He's not bad, he doesn't know any better. He used for trails and some cattle penning in his earlier days, but his rider's never handled him much on the ground. I can hold Coquette and she'll stand, maybe sniff around, but won't really move. If my friend holds his gelding, the gelding is all over the place, nipping at him, crowding him, etc. He's never been taught that he can't do it, so he thinks he's doing right.
 
Showjumper said:
Dolly gets told off (and a smack if it warrants it!) if she ignores one of my four main rules:

1) No kicking
2) No biting
3) No barging
4) No bucking

I don't allow dangerous behaviour. We're on a livery yard with lots of small children about and I want to know if I tie her up out of my sight for a minute, she won't injure someone.
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Out of interest how would you punish a horse if it bucked?
 
i have a highland pony so she is very strong and very heavy...:p I try not to punish her normally a stern word works, but the times where she squashes me, wont stand or hits me on the head then she gets a sharp smack on the shoulder. She responds well to punishment and if i was to be nicey nicey about things she would take the "P" and not listen. I am not one of them people that ride their horse and if it spooks or something i batter it senceless!! i cant ride with a whip because o how skye was backed my my old YO - talk about horse abuse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It was a horrible experiance, i can get away with riding her with a show cane but no short stick or schooling whip and i certainly cant lunge her with a lunge whip :(
 
Again, the word 'smacking' can mean different things to different people.. some will go for the face with raised arms and be quite hard and unjust (i.e hitting on the face once a runaway horse has been caught ), to others, smacking is a hard tap with the back of the hand on the body, or a quick reactive flick in response to a bite... semantics I suppose. Maybe "chastise" would be a better term...? If so, it seems that most of us are on the same page

it's common sense that if you really wallop a horse - in doing so not actually teaching him anything - then he is not going to trust you because he will not know whgy you did it, what it was supposed to mean or if and when you will do it again.

It saddens me incredibly when a horse at a competition (e.g. at work today at the EC), following a refusal (which in every case could have been rectified by the rider) back away from the jump, buck, even rear several times - and i including ones that clearly mean business - fully expecting the thrashing that follows. referring to last weekend; i can count on the fingers of my hands the amount of people who didn't use the whip or kick or scream at the horse, yet every one jumped it again in a relaxed and happy manner. it also is sad when a rider who has been waiting for 10-15 mins or so by the arena, then walks or trots in, gives the horse a good wallop (hand raised above head, etc etc) - fior what? "for good measure", "to show him", "just in case" i'm willing to bet.
it just goes to show that you don't need force to get a horse to do whast you want. it should be a partnership, each side (hrose and rider) giving and taking without fighting against one another.


Originally Posted by Yann
However slapping or hitting for things like space invasion, not standing still, mugging and other general 'misbehaviours' is a different matter for me. Like I posted before if you keep on punishing your horse for the same things over and over again then it isn't working and you need to look further. Does the horse actually understand what is expected of it? Has it been taught the desirable behaviour? Is the handler always consistent, ie allowing something in one context but not in another? Horses aren't born polite and understanding queen's english, too many people seem to assume they are. They're animals with a very different view of the world to ours and we need to make it clear what we expect of them, in a way they can understand. In my limited experience if you do that their naturally cooperative nature means that after a while everything gets easier for everyone and there's no need to punish any more
Originally Posted by Yann
I personally think a lot of punishment as applied to horses by horse owners can be more about relieving the owner's frustration than teaching the horse anything. Does slapping your horse when its naughty make it behave better in the long run or do you have to keep on slapping for the same old things?
It also often only addresses the symptoms of any issue rather than the causes, and can breed resentment and mistrust, and make some horses nervous or headshy. Not all by any means, but that's a tribute to how tolerant horses are.

I've always tried hard never to lose my temper or hit horses, and if something is going wrong with one I try and do something that will add to the situation, which often involves moving its feet to where you want them rather than where the horse does. However if I was put in a situation of danger then I'd have no compunction in doing whatever I needed to do to stay safe, anything else would be stupid.

I also don't buy in to the 'horses do it to each other so why shouldn't we' argument. Physical contact is usually the very last thing that happens between horses as wasting energy fighting and damaging each other doesn't make sense in evolutionary terms other than perhaps for breeding stallions. We're also ostensibly a lot more intelligent and should be able to do better

also, horses don't use punishment as such fro each other. whatever they do it is eithe rto asster themselves, protect or defend themselves . . . never to 'punish'.

i couldn't agree more.
:-D
 
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