Resisting at halt......why??

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Monty

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Nov 16, 2001
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Don't misunderstand this thread....I'm not moaning about Willow's schooling already. Bless, I've only had her six weeks,and only really ridden her for four, whilst awaiting dental treatment , weight gain (Hers not mine.....I hope!) and worst of all, sorting a saddle.Having completed 2 1/2 out of three, we've started a little very gentle schooling, and plenty of short hilly hacks.Really we've just done the odd rehearsal for the RDA dressage qualifiers.She can't stay on the bit very long, so we're doing it very much tongue in cheek, and in laid back fashion, as part of the getting to know process, not the qualifying for Hartpury College process, if you get my drift.
Her head carriage has improved beyone belief since she's had her front teeth sorted. She was 'frown mouthed'??? Or something like that, and the detist explained why it would make it difficult for her to drop her jaw.
I'm very happy with her progress, nice and slow and not driven by competition.What I DON'T understand though, is her halts. She performs them a bit like a youngster who has not been at it very long.Bit of resistance, but not too bad, then relaxes her jaw, but can't hold for too long.And quite difficult to get her to move off into the contact.But really not bad at all, and I'm not overly worried, at this stage.So what's the problem?? Well, she only does this when asked to halt on the track!!
Ask her to halt at X, at G, at D, at X facing E, or B, or even accross the long diagonal, and my does she put up a fight?? So much so, that it's going to be 'un petit peu' embarrassing at this test.(That's if I get there...I have a very bruised collar bone at present.Initally diagnosed fractured, but now they've changed their minds!)
She will momentarily stand with ears pricked,then she throws her head up, then sideways,left, right, but seldom down.She opens her mouth.She sometimes moves her feet, and jiggles her head around this way and that.Today she did two great steps of a turn on the forehand, which I would never have asked her to do yet, as she's not supple. She doesn't stay still long enough for you to put the reins in one hand long enough to do the salute thing. And as for imobility??? Well......LOL!! Her bit fits perfectly,even though she looks like that is what she's trying to get away from. Any bright ideas?? If she's evading the bit, then why only on the centre line??
 
Innnnteresting. No ideas on why she does it, but do you think you could get her past it with clicker training?

And doesn't she stand well to be mounted? Could you mount and dismount at X for a while? That could improve her immobility anyway :)

I'm quite interested in hearing what other people have to say about this, too... theories on why she might be doing it?

(Hope your collarbone feels better soon!)
 
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Mmm. Don't know, Monty. Few thoughts:

Merlin hates standing still. He really thinks he ought to be off doing something much more interesting, so if we're in halt, he decides to offer some rein-back, or some leg-yield, or he just tries to get going again. He anticipates like crazy and is a real little fidget-bum. So there could be an element of anticipation or impatience. And I suppose when she chucks her head about she could be testing your hands, maybe because she's been uncomfortable in her mouth, or maybe because she wants to find out if you'll give in and let her move off.

Also, do you think Willow might feel a little insecure about standing in an open space? Some horses like the security of the track (which is protected on at least one side) and it also gives them a sense of direction - it's easy to follow so they don't have to think about which way they should be pointing :D That's why they so often gravitate back to the track when you don't want them to!

But if she's relaxing her jaw at all, then it sounds as though you're doing really well. As she gets stronger she'll find it easy to carry herself properly for longer periods. It's so important not to let them get tired at this stage, because then they start building up the wrong muscles. Have you noticed any improvement in her shape yet, or is it still a bit early for there to have been much change? (Fascinating case study, this :) )
 
You're certainly right ros,it is going to be interesting, and I'm sort of looking forward to it.I can't say she's honestly changed shape yet, but she is starting to put on weight, which was my priority,as her ribs were horribly countable! But I wanted to do it slowly.As I said, though I've only had her since 14th April, she's really only been ridden for the last three weeks or so, due the difficulty of the saddle. Jane A. is lending me her Korrector Pad, which I'm hoping will arrive this weekend, because at present I'm having difficulty getting a pad which is padded in the right place, for her muscle wastage.

She's not really a fidgety type.Bit of a pain to girth up, but not that bad.Nothing else, and she stands for ever at the mounting block.This insecurity thing is interesting. Possibly.She really does resist with a vengeance, even though I reward her immediately when she lowers her head even for a few seconds, by 'giving'. Then just as you're thinking ....."YESSSSS!"....up or sideways shoots the head. Halting on the track, I'd say her behaviour was very normal of a horse in the early stages of training. But this is strange......She also doesn't move her feet when she's halted on the track.

Galadriel........the clicker might work.I haven't taught her clicker language yet.....but I've used the same idea, because she's a bit naughty to catch. I got myself a sheepdog training whistle. Used it within view of stable door, when she's in, then shook the bucket. Then put a headcollar on, and lead rope. Gave her a handful.Walked her round the yard, then put her back in the stable. Did this for a few days.
I tried it this morning in the field. I whistled from the gate. It was windy, so I don't think she could possibly have heard the bucket shaking. But boy she cam fast up that field!! She thrust her head at me to get that headcollar and rope on, so she could have her pony nut.

It certainly works in a roundabout way.Not sure how I can apply it to her head carriage yet, but I think I need to know why first really,don't I??? Oh, how confusing!
She's very good though. I could do with Heather's input on this....
 
Sounds like insecurity. A lot of horse don't like halting on the centre line, presumably to do with balance or insecurity issues (or both). Just really a case of persevering, doing some in-hand work would probably help by teaching her to obey voice commands.

Not sure what bit you are using but it may be worth fiddling around to find one that suits. TBs have such small mouths that they often have problems and a lot of them resent the nutcracker action. One's I've found useful for TB types are the french link snaffles, drop cheek snaffles (single or french link) and the JP snaffles. I usually go for the thinner snaffles as although the thicker one's are theoretically kinder they just don't have room in their mouth for the bulk.
 
I'm using a dinky little dressage bradoon, as she does have a very small mouth, and I tried a French link snaffle, but she seemed to get upset by the fact that the bit, though narrowish, was quite thick at the ends where it attached to the ring.I'll get on to the bit bank and see what Heather can come up with. Thanks for that suggestion. I never thought of in hand work, for that purpose.....I suppose it would make sense wouldn't it..??BTW, Is a 'drop cheek' the same as a hanging cheek??
 
Monty

Sometimes they have just never been taught to halt - we just spend all of our lives rushing about so much, that we pass it on to the horse and forget the simple things like standing still.

So - its something you (a) need to teach and (b) need to practise - but in a gentle way given your collarbone situation !

What are half-halts like ? does she understand them ?

Try things like

- work on a circle. Halt every quarter of a circle, start with a short wait, and then try to extend it, asking her to stand and relax before you move off again. She should start to anticipate the halt. Normally this would be a bad thing - but for this exercise its what you want !

- then work large, and halt at every marker.

It should be as gentle and progressive as is required to make it a quiet halt and not jar your shoulder.

Also - try halting with just your body. Slow your breathing and movement down and down til there is nothing. Keep your hands where they are - just ask with your body. (This can be easier done on the lunge first so someone else is controlling directions and you can knot the reins and let them go - removing the temptation to fiddle !).

It can take a while to get the horse to realise they need to listen. So keep at it. Once they do it once, the second time will be a fraction quicker and so on. Once you get a halt, allow yourself to relax. Now reverse the process and 'up' your energy levels - no legs or hands aids yet, just 'lift' the energy, quicken breathing etc - hopefully the horse will get it and at least be a bit more attentive. Now use the slightest of leg aids to ask for a walk.

repeat, repeat, repeat.

This will seem REALLY boring but will pay good dividends both for you and her.

Finally, if the halts are coming good - you can ask for a fraction of softness when you halt - you don't want her to go back or sideways (though often this is offered, almost as an evasion). As soon as you get a little give, reward by softening your contact.

But don't let her walk off - you want her to soften and stand, not soften and depart ! If she starts to walk off, halt and ask again. Until she halts, softens, stands - and only walks on when you ask.

And then remember, when you work in the future - it is useful every now and then to just turn in and halt and let the horse have a breather. The western folk call it "filling up on air" - like refilling the fuel tank ! There is nothing lazy or bad about doing this, and it helps reinforce to the horse that its ok to just stop and stand now and then. You can actually start to use this kindof halt as a reward. But be careful notto overuse it or everytime they do something good they reckon they should stop and halt - not so good in a dressage test :D

Oh yes - the halt thing is also good for doing lateral stretch exercise. i.e. halt and ask the horse to 'give' to rein contact left and right. Good way to test and improve suppleness. They should not move their feet, just yield to the pressure. But at first they may offer movement instead so you have to ask a little.

Must stop waffling - hope some of it is useful !
 
Excellent bunch of replies folks! Not much to add other than I too have had totall fidget bums- my Lipizzaner was one and he took years to get to stand at halt without doing something irritating!

Fanta hasn't bene much better and is so sensitive to the slightest leg pressure that he will move away from it even if you breathe on him, but at last he is halting square and standing still.

I wouldn't set too much store by it at the moment.

I agree with the idea of clicker though. It was this that first stopped Fanta running through the bridle if he decided just to try to bog off and capriole. It took no time to teach him canter to halt with the clicker, and all the other halts improved as a result.

I don't use it now, as I don't need to and he is so much more engaged anyway, that he just comes under with his back legs and responds, but he was a pain the a....e for some months!


Heather
 
Ugla and Iacs do the opposite, when on the track they cannot see the point in stopping, especially if the rider does not ask absolutely evenly. If they sit askew Iacs and Ugla think it is time to go sidey-ways.

Ask either of them to halt on the centre line or X or turn in and halt they will!

They too are so willing to move away from leg it only takes a slight brush or wriggle and off they go. Frances and I can get halt, so long as we are concentrating!

By the way Monty I have posted your dressage leathers, try them and see if they are any use at all!

Iacs and Ugla's problem is a rider thing, Sensetive horses not being asked gently and clearly enough. great for refining flappy riders.
 
I had the same problem with a friends horse, she was a problem to halt on the track at first. She would just walk through my aids, naughty little madam!

I put a kneck strap on and held it hooked through my ring finger and pinky and held the rien contact between my thumb and pointer finger and back out of my middle finger. I lengthened my arms abit, so the rien was shorter but not restricting. This gave a the leeway to ask nicely, but when I was ignored I could sit up tall and close my whole hand. At first if she responded by hesitating for a split second, I praised and moved her forward instantly. It was amazing how the added pressure across her chest helped the penny to drop.

The center line still remained a problem though. In desperation I put 2 bollards about 3 to 4 feet apart at X, with a jump pole laid on the ground a couple feet in front of them - and asked for halt between them and it worked - not instantly, I worked as before, praised a half halt and moved her forward instantly - so forward was my idea. We eventually got there, after half halt, I worked on halt for 1 second (I ask halt, and say 1 elephant in my mind) then move on) by working up a second at a time we got up to 5 elephants, then I asked for halt 5 elephants and back 1 stride then walk on.

I didn't go much further than with her, which was disappointing for me, she had become a total pleasure to ride, she was gorgeous - but there just isn't enough hours in the day.

If that hadn't worked I had thought of placing 3 or 4 spaced poles ending just before X, raised at alternate ends, firstly working straight through them as she would have to really think about stepping over with each individual leg. This would encourage her to be aware of her feet and concentrate. Then start to ask for halt (half halt).

Sorry this is becoming an epic, but have you tried inhand schooling - I always do inhand work with any horse I school, before I ride. They must be willing to be touched all over, with my hand and a schooling whip. Respond to 'halt' and 'walk on', and be obedient to lunge and long line.

When they have that under thier belt, they are already listening, and hold you in respect.

Never tried clicker training myself, but I know you have, and have had good results.

All the best.

Lesley
 
Yes Monty, drop cheek = hanging cheek. You can get them in single and french link. Peri is not keen on them - goes along very elegantly in an outline without an ounce of contact and completely behind the leg. Tavia goes really well in one and can be a positive tank in anything else, so it is definitely a case of try before you buy.
 
Much better lesson today......

Until about the last three lessons, I've found that Willow started head shaking and arguing at approx 40 mins into the lesson, and wondered if this was the point at which the saddle (which we know is still not perfect yet) was lowering too low. But then I wondered if she was merely getting tired.....after all....she hasn't been asked to work like this before....and this is very gentle.
That point has become further and further into the lesson, until today, she only started 5 mins before then end. So to reward her, we finished immediately she did as required.
Another interesting thing too. We normally leave practising my test until a good half way into the lesson....when she's getting tired.....perhaps???
Today as soon as she was warmed up, we went into the test, and her halts at X were almost respectable.....i.e much as they are on the track. Not much time to salute,but thankfully at RDA Dressage you are allowed to keep both hands on the reins and just bow your head if you want to.Not really designed for a rider whose horse is being unco-operative....more for people who carry two sticks!(Thought it doesn't stipulate that in the rule book!!) But I'm afraid I shall be taking advantage of the rule on this occasion!! I'll still have to be smartish.....but if she just doesn't show off her turn on the forehand it will be something!!
I also suddenly remembered that Willow is very responsive to voice prompts........the odd "Brrrr" to speed up the trot, and "steady" to slow it, works well.I also noticed that if she walks a little too fast for me, when I'm leading her, I only have to say "whoa" and she slows it. So I tried voice aids for the halt.I may use my voice for RDA Dressage in moderation,so we tried it. She was a lot better.Not brilliant by a long stretch, but really a lot better. So that's what I'll have to do to get it right, for the time being. We also tried it with Rachel leading her, and me using my voice.But the leading didn't help, because Rachel and I couldn't get in synch, knowing when each was going to give the signal.

Today,I also took her to the block by myself, and got on without any help. She just stood and looked at me in amazement, and then at my instructor,as much as to say...."Whatcha doin' over there??? You meant to be over here 'helpin' Fanny Fannackerpants here to hurry up."

I have a feeling she'll be just fine.......I just want to build Rome in a day!!!!!
 
For a horse that has some predefined problems (hollow back, lack of weight/muscle etc.) 40 mins is quite a long session. 15/20 mins' correct work can work wonders, but as soon as the horse starts to tire you can unwittingly be undoing any good work that's gone before.

So for the time being. Monty, I'm sure you could do a lot worse than get a little bit of correct work, praise her, and call it a day. As you say, Rome wasn't built in a day - it's a laudable attitude! :)
 
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