Riding deep and riding overbent

As I said, I'm not a fan of round and deep. But the argument used by Sjef Janssen, Nicole Uphoff, Carl Hester et al, is that when they bring the horse's neck up so that the poll is the highest point the horse will not be "overbent", ie have it's nose behind the vertical.

Maria
 
Does the horse's posture when overbent resemble an upside-down "U" with head behind the vertical? Does the action of the hindquarters (at the trot, for example) sort of look a bit like a big-stepping shuffle instead of like a springy, lifting, push?
 
HI Maria,

I have watched all three working many times and sure enough, the horses were all well behind the vertical, so much so that at a clinic taken by Sjef at Towerlands a few years ago, prompted a top judge to have a go at him about it, and he demanded that we see the horse working 'up', to determine whether it actually could. Sjef's argument was that the horse hadn't been warmed up enough to do so- this was a good 30 mins into the session- and the horse did not come 'up' and remained very overbent.

There are a few occasions when I feel that it is justified, as in Rembrandt's case, but I think that this method of working him was also the prime cause of him being marked down time and again in his career, for not being able to 'sit', especially in piaffe. Warmabloods generally don't find it as easy as Iberians to 'sit', due to their conformation being very different, but Goldstern, for instance, had a wonderful piaffe, as has Lars Pederson's Cavan ( think that is the name) so it is perfectly possible to train it, if the horse is given time and progressively taight to lower the hanuches, not force the hindlegs so far under that the back is strained and the horse looks as if it is goose stepping rather than concertina-ing the hind joints.

Heather
 
Hi Heather

As I've already indicated, you don't have to persuade me of the de-merits of the deep and round philosophy. Having considered the arguments for and against, it is not something I'd want to use or something I'd suggest anyone else uses.

Paul Belasik provides an excellent summary of the pros and cons in Dressage for the 21st Century and seems to see some merits in round and deep if used correctly. But I think there is an issue about terminology as when I mentioned this else where, someone I respect who knows Belasik said he didn't endorse round and deep.

As you say, quite often what those using round and deep don't ever do is bring their horses into a frame with the poll at the highest point and the nose at or in front of the vertical.

Now wouldn't it have been interesting to see how people like Reiner Klimke or Luis Valenca would have trained Rembrandt. What's the betting they'd have succeeded without resorting to round and deep?

There's an excellent report on the Johann Hinneman clinic in this month's Chiltern and Thames Rider. Jo Hinneman promotes long and low and from the report appears to be totally opposed to round and deep. And on the next page there is a report of a Carl Hester lecture demo promoting his training techniques - and you've guessed it ....

Long and low used correctly IMHO is the correct method.

Maria
 
I think that even Reiner Klimke didn't actually disagree with using this method on Rembrandt who was the most spooky horse you could imagine. I saw him at the WEG in the Hague, when he was not long back in work after his broken leg. At 17 yrs old, he gave Nicole a nightmare ride, spooking at the flowers and letters, in fact even his own shadow I think!


Reiner Klimke only used long ad low comparatively sparingly- purely to warm up, rest or cool down for quite short periods, befoer putting the horse 'up' even youngsters. I remember him being asked why he put a young horse 'up' and didn't work it long and low for the whole schooling session at that stage/age. He replied 'You British still have your horses going long and low when they are ten years old, and implied that is why we didn't get very far in dressage!!

Heather

Heather
 
Blue Hors Cavan

is Lars Pedersen's horse. Happen to have rather fallen in love with this horse when I saw him at STockholm Horse Show 2 years ago. He's so gorgeous !
 
Deep is a big topic at the moment in Germany, with as many anti's as pro's for the technique. It is certain to engender fairly heated arguments in 'mixed' company.

I'll confess that I'm a member of the anti brigade, although would also agree with Heather that there are exceptions to the rule who may benefit - few and far between IMHO. My trainer from Germany gets pretty incensed when it is described as a German technique - she regards it as bad riding, hearing that Klimke was opposed to it in general explains that to some extent as she was privileged to work with him some years ago.

If you want to see a 'modern' dressage horse doing a good piaffe try and find a video of Chris Bartle riding Wily Trout - and then compare that to some of the piaffe work seen in competition now.

I've recently done a clinic with a trainer who does use deep in his training and he was fairly astounded when I refused to do it with my mare and explained why I would not. In fairness he respected my point of view and didn't push the issue, he had a lot to offer in other areas so the day was not a total loss. I think the fact that I had bothered to look into the idea and knew the detrimental effects helped - he knew I was not just dismissing it for no reason.
 
Hi Lgd

Good for you for sticking to your principles re not riding your horse round and deep.

Chris Bartle is a fantastic rider and trainer isn't he. One of the few good bits on the old BHS Horsemaster videos was Chris riding. I like his emphasis on "maintain your position statement". Wily Trout was a real gem - and just showed that you don't need a continental warmblood bred for dressage for several generations to succeed. And Wily Trout and Chris Bartle still remain our best ever combination in Olympic dressage.

What a shame that British Dressage don't use Chris in a team training role - our loss is the German eventing team's gain!

Maria
 
Ggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! British Dressage's failure to recognise that we have one of the world's best dressage trainers in Chris Bartle makes me so furious, Maria!!!!!! Chris is one of the most academic and thinking trainers, not hard on the horses, and I have great admiration for him. Why on earth we have to import foreign trainers when the Germans had the sense to cart him off across the channel to train their eventers, is typical of the lack of foresight to be found in the dressage hierarchy here.

Heather
 
I don't mean to start an argument here but i wonder and would like to ask why the Europeans generally have more success in dressage competitions than the British.

Is it because of their methods of training (using the round and deep methods) or is it the judges? Has the standard of international judges changed? Or is it because of the horses breeding over there?
 
Hey,

i havent really read through this thread,

how much over bent do they ride? like, the horse i ride, sometimes, he goes and hides his head, but ive been trying really hard on getting him on the vertical. its really hard sometimes, when he just gets it in there! lol.

would u call this really overbent? sometimes, he has it more into his chest, but not usually.
 

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HI Dressageluvr,

I am afraid to say that this is a classic photo of a horse being overbent and avoiding the contact. You need to push him forward more when he does this- sometimes, lifting the hands as you drive him forward with the legs will also help just to get him to raise his head to the point where he has to take the contact again.

Clipclop, the Continent has a centuries old tradition of Classical riding/dressage, whereas we are comparatively new to it, being a hunting/cross country riding nation. They are light years ahead of us in the training, and even after more than fifty years of dressage in this country now, we are still lagging way behind, because the hierarchy will not admit our failings. There was a great letter in Horse and Hound a couplel of weeks ago, from a German Grand Prix rider, who was obviously very fed up with Brits blaming the horses not being good enough. He said that we have imported top level horses from the continent, which any other country woudl have been able to take on and compete internationally without a problem. Once the horses get over here, they never reach their full potential. His letter was entitled 'stop blaming the tools'. I then wrote a letter in response which as yet hasn't been published, and may never be so, as they don't like to stir things up too much! Here it is:

>>With reference to Meike Claasen's excellent letter concerning British Dressage (H and H 28th November) entitled 'Stop blaming the tools', I would like to draw attention to the following words of the late Lt. Col. Anthony Crossley, former dressage correspondent of this magazine, author, competitor and trainer. These quotes were taken from articles written, not in 2002 in the aftermath of the WEG, but in 1976 and 77, and sadly, seemingly every bit as relevant today. The full articles, taken from the now defunct 'Riding' magazine, make even more interesting reading.

"It is sometimes said that there is a lot of controversy in British dressage circles, and if that indictment is valid, it may prove to be one of the reasons why we continue, after thirty years of apprenticeship, to lag behind the leading countries. In most if not all of the other equestrian sports, not excluding the infant driving, we are right up there and in with a chance, but in dressage we continue to hold a second rate position. The leading German equestrian magazine Reiter Revue International recently carried an article on British dressage which stated forthrightly that we were not fulfilling the promise that we had shown some years ago. We had made a good start, but somewhere progress had been blocked and we were, with few exceptions, failing to achieve the sort of standards that are nowadays expected in top international competitions. The writer of that article is a very experienced dressage critic and we can ill afford to ignore such an unbiased warning".

"We have to face the fact that by this method of assessment the status of basic British horsemanship is now well below what we could accept with any pride, and our inadequacy in dressage should therefore be a matter of urgent concern to those who have accepted the responsibility for fostering our national prowess in this field.The situation is recognised and regretted throughout the equestrian world".

" And so we come finally to the competition judges....... Unfortunately, due to causes for which the judges themselves can hardly be blamed, not more than five or six per cent of the total will have had much, if anything, to do with the training of a fully educated horse......... a very large proportion will never have ridden at medium level, that being the standard that should be expected of any decently educated general purpose riding horse. As a result of this obviously unsatisfactory situation, well authenticated stories abound of quite startlingly contradictory assessments from co-judges....... Nevertheless, this often rather underqualified group can exert a strong and far reaching influence. It seems a fair question to ask whether our overall judging standards are adequate in the context of the reliance placed upon them by riders".


Heather
 
I saw that letter in H&H agreed wholeheartedly. What cowards they are not to print your reply (or anybodys reply for that matter) It really is pathetic the whining that goes on about no horses. There are any number of horses, and if the Spanish can get medals with the PREs in the teams who are supposed to have 'poor movement' the BD hierachy should be ashamed of themselves.

An interesting point in the quote from Anthony Crossley is the idea that medium level is the point where any nicely schooled riding horse should be. It is the same point that Henry Wynmalen makes in 'Equitation'. There is something very wrong with a system where most riders bug out at Elementary before the fun really begins. Maybe we fail because our expectations are so low.

A question I have about the history of classical/dressage in Britain. If the basis of dressage on the continent started in the battlefield - what were the British cavalry like? Why was their way of training different to the continent, or was it the same at one point then took another direction for some reason?
 
In many ways the beginnings of dressage were more to do with the pursuit of the training of the horse by noblemen with not a lot else to do!! The airs above the ground were developed more by the military schools such as the French and Spanish Riding Schools.

We did have a certain amount of noblemen in England such as the Duke of Newcastle, who pursued the training of the horse to the highest level- in fact many of the great English houses had indoor riding schools, where high school riding was practised. But, it didn't last after hunting started to take over in popularity, and during the last couple of centuries, was all but forgotten here, apart from James Fillis reviving a certain interest.

Heather
 
I remember that article in Riding magazine, and things haven't changed.

I used to give lessons to someone who asked if another person could join in one day which I said yes. This other rider was having problems with lengthening stride, she just couldn't get any, but she only tried across the diagnal. She was being trained by a trainer who had trained an Olympic team, but this lady didn't understand about lengthening the stride so had no chance of getting it.

Using the shortening on the short side, and lengthening on the long, and singing in time with the strides, she very quickly understood what was needed. Poor horse, after that all she wanted to do was lengthen the stride.

If instructors are not getting over to the riders what is needed and how to do it, then they are going to get it wrong, and it is these riders who go on to become instructors, trainers and judges.

Harry Monks used to say that it was a poor rider who blamed his horse, and to always look at your riding if you could get it right.

There are many people on this board who would love to have had the chance that these riders and judges have had, but not had the luck or money to do it. They would probably do a better job of the Dressage and their horses would be better looked after as well. :D
 
I have to agree about Chris Bartle. The Horsemaster videos I don't have any longer but when I had them I enjoyed watching him ride and felt his explanations and rationale were really good and so learned something.
 
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