I have done a lot of trotting up hills. It is a dilemma tho as the ground here is already getting hard. So I have been softhearted and choosing the verge of the track where there is some grass. Is it better for them to be on the track itself, even if it is stony?
The Mare Who No-One Wanted.......
- Thread starter KP nut
- Start date
I think that depends really, doesn't it? Ziggy often pecks and is unhappy on stony tracks, and I'd rather get a good smart trot up a verge than a stagger up stones. We trot right smartly along tarmacked roads though, under trimmer's orders!
I plan to hack her out regularly, on a variety of surfaces over varied terrain. She is not yet great at knowing where her own feet are so the more variety the better to force her to pay attention. As well as building her up. Physio saw her today and is happy with her. She's only been in work since beginning of April but she is evenly muscled and looking good which was nice to hear.
Warning - LONG!! Included for various people who have pmed me to ask me to post about the clinic. Thanks for your interest! Glad it's not just me.
So I went to the Buck Brannaman clinic at Aintree and ended up riding. FOR FREE!!
I had offered Amber’s services as a clinic horse for riders coming from overseas (they wanted green horses) but as it happened her rider did not feel confident on her so gave the ride to me. YIPPEE.
Amber was actually very good but not surprisingly being in a huge indoor arena with 30 other horses, music and spectators was a little overwhelming for her at times. It was great but rather scary when Buck thunders things like “your horse is running off with you! You don’t mind si much because she is running off in WALK but she’s still running off and it is unacceptable!!”
But he was right. And he was very helpful in getting me to ‘get to her feet’. I had to leave the mouth alone “the mouth is not where the problem is” and gain control of her feet. Which we more or less did by the end.
Anyway here are my main learning points to take away:
1) How little I expect of my horses. Ie how low my standards are! For example, can I choose the pace at a walk? No. Amber walks at what pace she wants to - normally the pace of the horse in front - when we are out hacking or in an exciting situation. Can I move all 4 feet in any direction I like in walk – softly, in balance with no bracing. Ie can I move one foot at a time forwards or backwards, sideways and diagonally.
Buck did this on 2 green horses he had never ridden before – he’d choose a foot and choose a place for it to land – forward a step, back a step, back and out to the side, forward and out to the side, crossing in front of or behind the other foot. Whatever. He called it ‘having the reins hooked to the feet. You don’t move the head and neck with the reins, but the feet.
It was very impressive and in his view once you can do this in walk, then you learn it in trot, canter and gallop. And all on a loose/single rein. So all horses should be able to be cantered on a loose rein, in a snaffle, in open space and stop immediately without resistance. He says (and it is certainly true for me) that most people do not expect that of their horses: they are happy if the horse basically goes where he is told and doesn’t run off with you. But you can (and should) expect so much more than that.
2) The usefulness of circles. Lots of horses were getting worried/stressed in the arena and he got us all doing very tiny circles, changing directions all the time. He said if the horse is flexed to that degree he can’t rear, buck or take off and it is also calming. And indeed it was for Amber. So as her walk sped up and she ignored aids to slow I’d put her on those circles and she’d visibly settle then I’d let her go straight again until she sped up again. He said you might circle for weeks before a horse learns to listen to seat aids to slow but it is time well spent and it never leaves the horse once it is built in.
3) The need to ride FORWARD. “If you haven’t got life from the horse you can’t achieve anything.” So even those ‘hot’ horses had to be ridden forward – just had to direct the energy. As for more laid back horses – any horse can come to life instantly and with great energy. So they should give you that energy whenever you ask for it instantly with a small cue. The key here is the subtlety with which you initially cue the horse, then the authority with which you back up the initial cue. Cues should be feather light. You should be able to canter any horse from halt effortlessly. And stop again! In Buck’s view the vast majority of riders are too heavy with their first cue and too wishy washy with the follow up. So we ride in this kind of nagging middle ground – neither soft/light enough when we can be nor firm enough when we need to be. I know I definitely fit this category.
4) The need to repeat things thousands/ tens of thousands of times. (I know Mark Rashid does not agree with this.) To avoid boredom have about 6-8 exercises and work on them at the same time – switching between them every few minutes.
5) The need for a horse to be in a relaxed frame of mind to achieve anything much. Worried horses can’t learn so if a horse starts getting worried go back to the circles till he settles. Never ever ever ever try and settle a worried horse by pulling on its reins! (Guilty as charged!!) He also said unless a horse is even on both sides he can’t be mentally relaxed though he did not explain why not. So if your horse has marked asymmetries then you need to even those out by doing much more work on the weak/difficult side. (My physio does not agree with this. She says always work a horse equally on both sides. It makes more sense to me though to work on the weaker side more.)
6) Buck and Mark Rashid both talk extensively about following a feel and about softness. I love their focus on that. To achieve softness both seem to say you need mindfulness to notice and release on the slightest try and you always need to ask with as gentle a feel/cue as you possibly can. Before backing it up with something more crude. Mark advises to go up by degrees. Buck goes straight from a ‘barely noticeable’ to a ‘with authority’ cue which seems a little unnecessary but certainly works. ‘With authority’ basically means a spur in the side – HARD - or a very firm pull on the reins. However every single time you ask again, you start with the softest of soft cues.
7) The need for your horse to be paying YOU attention ALL THE TIME: Before the horse can rear, he needs to move or shift weight back. Before he shifts back he needs to think back. Before he thinks back he needs to take his attention off you. THAT is where you intervene and get his attention back on you. We have used this idea (which I was aware of before the clinic) with great benefit on Max recently. “It’s all about what happens before what happens happens.’ I can discuss Max more on another thread if anyone is interested, as this is Amber’s thread but the clinic helped to clarify my thinking a lot about him.
In terms of the overall experience, Buck has become a bit too ‘big’ I think. So there were 30 horses at a time riding and he gave very little direct feedback to any 1 rider. And many riders had no direct feedback AT ALL for 3 days. I’d feel a little cheesed off if I had paid £700 for a 3 day clinic and had absolutely no instruction or feedback from Buck at all! I rode for free and he did talk to me twice which was very useful.
The other problem (apart from sheer numbers) was that he demonstrated for a full hour to hour and a half at the start of each session, demonstrating all the exercises. But they were all so subtle involving little shifts of hand and leg position and weight. So by the time he said ‘ok get to work’ no-one could remember the detail of each movement. Plus as a spectator you could not tell what people were working on as the exercises were quite similar, so it all just looked like a bunch of horses meandering around!
Finally the ‘Buck is God’ vibe did grate after a little while. So 3 days of intense interaction with die hard Buck followers was quite a challenge at times. Amber’s initial rider was a particularly devoted Buck Fan and she did irritate me after a while with her ‘but Buck says’….. to every last little thing. She was aghast when I gave Amber a polo in the evening! I do rather prefer Mark’s view that if it’s ok with you and your horse, it’s ok!
Buck is clearly a talented horseman, and I like his kind of connected/focused/light riding. He and Mark Rashid both want that. They want 100% of your attention on the horse and 100% of the horse’s attention on you so it becomes a true meeting of minds/bodies and it’s just effortless. That’s where the magic is! I have had those moments of connection with Thyme and with Cally. I am aware I don’t have them (yet) with Amber. But that is what I aspire to.
I would not go to another clinic, but I will certainly use what I learnt. And I will set my standards a little higher from now on!!
In the scary spotlight:
Not a bad venue!
'Buck School'
So I went to the Buck Brannaman clinic at Aintree and ended up riding. FOR FREE!!
I had offered Amber’s services as a clinic horse for riders coming from overseas (they wanted green horses) but as it happened her rider did not feel confident on her so gave the ride to me. YIPPEE.
Amber was actually very good but not surprisingly being in a huge indoor arena with 30 other horses, music and spectators was a little overwhelming for her at times. It was great but rather scary when Buck thunders things like “your horse is running off with you! You don’t mind si much because she is running off in WALK but she’s still running off and it is unacceptable!!”
But he was right. And he was very helpful in getting me to ‘get to her feet’. I had to leave the mouth alone “the mouth is not where the problem is” and gain control of her feet. Which we more or less did by the end.
Anyway here are my main learning points to take away:
1) How little I expect of my horses. Ie how low my standards are! For example, can I choose the pace at a walk? No. Amber walks at what pace she wants to - normally the pace of the horse in front - when we are out hacking or in an exciting situation. Can I move all 4 feet in any direction I like in walk – softly, in balance with no bracing. Ie can I move one foot at a time forwards or backwards, sideways and diagonally.
Buck did this on 2 green horses he had never ridden before – he’d choose a foot and choose a place for it to land – forward a step, back a step, back and out to the side, forward and out to the side, crossing in front of or behind the other foot. Whatever. He called it ‘having the reins hooked to the feet. You don’t move the head and neck with the reins, but the feet.
It was very impressive and in his view once you can do this in walk, then you learn it in trot, canter and gallop. And all on a loose/single rein. So all horses should be able to be cantered on a loose rein, in a snaffle, in open space and stop immediately without resistance. He says (and it is certainly true for me) that most people do not expect that of their horses: they are happy if the horse basically goes where he is told and doesn’t run off with you. But you can (and should) expect so much more than that.
2) The usefulness of circles. Lots of horses were getting worried/stressed in the arena and he got us all doing very tiny circles, changing directions all the time. He said if the horse is flexed to that degree he can’t rear, buck or take off and it is also calming. And indeed it was for Amber. So as her walk sped up and she ignored aids to slow I’d put her on those circles and she’d visibly settle then I’d let her go straight again until she sped up again. He said you might circle for weeks before a horse learns to listen to seat aids to slow but it is time well spent and it never leaves the horse once it is built in.
3) The need to ride FORWARD. “If you haven’t got life from the horse you can’t achieve anything.” So even those ‘hot’ horses had to be ridden forward – just had to direct the energy. As for more laid back horses – any horse can come to life instantly and with great energy. So they should give you that energy whenever you ask for it instantly with a small cue. The key here is the subtlety with which you initially cue the horse, then the authority with which you back up the initial cue. Cues should be feather light. You should be able to canter any horse from halt effortlessly. And stop again! In Buck’s view the vast majority of riders are too heavy with their first cue and too wishy washy with the follow up. So we ride in this kind of nagging middle ground – neither soft/light enough when we can be nor firm enough when we need to be. I know I definitely fit this category.
4) The need to repeat things thousands/ tens of thousands of times. (I know Mark Rashid does not agree with this.) To avoid boredom have about 6-8 exercises and work on them at the same time – switching between them every few minutes.
5) The need for a horse to be in a relaxed frame of mind to achieve anything much. Worried horses can’t learn so if a horse starts getting worried go back to the circles till he settles. Never ever ever ever try and settle a worried horse by pulling on its reins! (Guilty as charged!!) He also said unless a horse is even on both sides he can’t be mentally relaxed though he did not explain why not. So if your horse has marked asymmetries then you need to even those out by doing much more work on the weak/difficult side. (My physio does not agree with this. She says always work a horse equally on both sides. It makes more sense to me though to work on the weaker side more.)
6) Buck and Mark Rashid both talk extensively about following a feel and about softness. I love their focus on that. To achieve softness both seem to say you need mindfulness to notice and release on the slightest try and you always need to ask with as gentle a feel/cue as you possibly can. Before backing it up with something more crude. Mark advises to go up by degrees. Buck goes straight from a ‘barely noticeable’ to a ‘with authority’ cue which seems a little unnecessary but certainly works. ‘With authority’ basically means a spur in the side – HARD - or a very firm pull on the reins. However every single time you ask again, you start with the softest of soft cues.
7) The need for your horse to be paying YOU attention ALL THE TIME: Before the horse can rear, he needs to move or shift weight back. Before he shifts back he needs to think back. Before he thinks back he needs to take his attention off you. THAT is where you intervene and get his attention back on you. We have used this idea (which I was aware of before the clinic) with great benefit on Max recently. “It’s all about what happens before what happens happens.’ I can discuss Max more on another thread if anyone is interested, as this is Amber’s thread but the clinic helped to clarify my thinking a lot about him.
In terms of the overall experience, Buck has become a bit too ‘big’ I think. So there were 30 horses at a time riding and he gave very little direct feedback to any 1 rider. And many riders had no direct feedback AT ALL for 3 days. I’d feel a little cheesed off if I had paid £700 for a 3 day clinic and had absolutely no instruction or feedback from Buck at all! I rode for free and he did talk to me twice which was very useful.
The other problem (apart from sheer numbers) was that he demonstrated for a full hour to hour and a half at the start of each session, demonstrating all the exercises. But they were all so subtle involving little shifts of hand and leg position and weight. So by the time he said ‘ok get to work’ no-one could remember the detail of each movement. Plus as a spectator you could not tell what people were working on as the exercises were quite similar, so it all just looked like a bunch of horses meandering around!
Finally the ‘Buck is God’ vibe did grate after a little while. So 3 days of intense interaction with die hard Buck followers was quite a challenge at times. Amber’s initial rider was a particularly devoted Buck Fan and she did irritate me after a while with her ‘but Buck says’….. to every last little thing. She was aghast when I gave Amber a polo in the evening! I do rather prefer Mark’s view that if it’s ok with you and your horse, it’s ok!
Buck is clearly a talented horseman, and I like his kind of connected/focused/light riding. He and Mark Rashid both want that. They want 100% of your attention on the horse and 100% of the horse’s attention on you so it becomes a true meeting of minds/bodies and it’s just effortless. That’s where the magic is! I have had those moments of connection with Thyme and with Cally. I am aware I don’t have them (yet) with Amber. But that is what I aspire to.
I would not go to another clinic, but I will certainly use what I learnt. And I will set my standards a little higher from now on!!
In the scary spotlight:
Not a bad venue!
'Buck School'
What an amazing experience! Thanks for posting those notes, I found them extremely interesting.
The bit that stood out for me (because it is the most relevant to my riding relationship with Raf) is the need to ride forward and achieving this by giving a subtle first cue, then following up with something much stronger. I know this and have practised it many times in my lessons and it's true when we go in the school and Raf half-heartedly responds to a cue and then I follow it up ("come down on him like a ton of bricks" was the cry of my old RI), Raf does sharpen up and start to respond more quickly. But on reading your post I realise this is just a routine we have - every time we go in the school we go through the same process, whereas to achieve Buck's softness I realise we have to have it in place all the time. So I think consistency is my problem! Which I suppose is where No 7 comes in, I should be paying 100% attention to my horse all the time and vice versa, and also No 1 - I have very low expectations of both me and my horse!
So, reading your notes I am beginning to understand that achieving 'softness' is not about developing a bond with your horse through mutual appreciation, but it is actually bloody hard work, or at least takes a lot of determination and focus!
I'm glad Amber was a good girl for you and coped with all the noise and new things. She's really proving her worth for you isn't she?
The bit that stood out for me (because it is the most relevant to my riding relationship with Raf) is the need to ride forward and achieving this by giving a subtle first cue, then following up with something much stronger. I know this and have practised it many times in my lessons and it's true when we go in the school and Raf half-heartedly responds to a cue and then I follow it up ("come down on him like a ton of bricks" was the cry of my old RI), Raf does sharpen up and start to respond more quickly. But on reading your post I realise this is just a routine we have - every time we go in the school we go through the same process, whereas to achieve Buck's softness I realise we have to have it in place all the time. So I think consistency is my problem! Which I suppose is where No 7 comes in, I should be paying 100% attention to my horse all the time and vice versa, and also No 1 - I have very low expectations of both me and my horse!
So, reading your notes I am beginning to understand that achieving 'softness' is not about developing a bond with your horse through mutual appreciation, but it is actually bloody hard work, or at least takes a lot of determination and focus!
I'm glad Amber was a good girl for you and coped with all the noise and new things. She's really proving her worth for you isn't she?
Gosh that sounds very intense and overwhelming! I can understand the urge for connection with your horse, but some of it sounds a little too labour-intensive for me!
But thank you for the report..... interesting and enlightening- and I'm glad Amber was a good girlie.
(And yes please, I'd be interested in hearing about Max!)
But thank you for the report..... interesting and enlightening- and I'm glad Amber was a good girlie.
(And yes please, I'd be interested in hearing about Max!)
Yes exactly! And sometimes I just can't really be bothered. I just want to get on and go for a bimble! Someone asked Buck about that - specifically "can't you ever just go out for a hack and not pay attention." The answer was an emphatic no! If you 'mentally abandon' (his words) the horse and leave him to just carry you while you chat with your friends or daydream or look at the view, then the horse will know he is on his own and will not let you take over the decision making. He will lend you co-operation but will reserve the right to take back control by spooking/running/spinning or ditching you any time he feels he needs to. And he is right to do that as how can he let you be in charge if you aren't paying attention? Buck says he does 'multi-task'. He can think about other things when he is riding but he is always 'with' the horse at the same time and every few minutes he will randomly 'check in' - ask for a few slower strides or a shift in movement in a very subtle way. If the horse is not 'with him' then he will respond too late or not at all and the 'with authority' cue comes in. Over time the horse learns to be 'on stand by' for an instruction any time and be ready to respond.
II can;t say I will do this as I am not sure I have the necessary commitment but I can see the logic of it.....
That's humanising the horse quite a bit.... not sure I agree with all that.
The way I see it, it is more about self preservation. If your horse knows you aren't paying attention to what is going on, then he will be more aware the the need to protect himself?
I did find the whole 'should' mantra annoying. There are millions of riders having a lovely time with their horses who do not ride like this, or want to ride like this. I have no intention of doing any of this with Oscar because although he is still a cheeky bugger at times, I don;t really mind! And nor does Katie. And they have fun.
I am interested with Amber just because I am. If I wasn't, I would not bother. It's a choice not a 'should'.
With a horse like Max, I need solutions and these ideas offer some, I think.
I did find the whole 'should' mantra annoying. There are millions of riders having a lovely time with their horses who do not ride like this, or want to ride like this. I have no intention of doing any of this with Oscar because although he is still a cheeky bugger at times, I don;t really mind! And nor does Katie. And they have fun.
I am interested with Amber just because I am. If I wasn't, I would not bother. It's a choice not a 'should'.
With a horse like Max, I need solutions and these ideas offer some, I think.
I am grateful to you for reporting on the Buck clinic and many of the things you say echo what I thought as a spectator.
How briliant that you got to ride, as many of my misgivings were about her being ridden by h someone else.
Just a few observations so you can comment (i.e. I am not getting at you or taking issue).
As a spectator I did watch the Buck gets on a green horse and shows how to control each foot - the front feet being cued with the reins. I didnt really "get this" and wonder if you can enlarge on it? It would seem from Rashid too that training a cow horse does involve more concentration on the forelegs than the riding methods taught in the UK.
Are you able now to move any one foot on Amber? I dont think I can do this.
Grace as per a recent thread did frighten me by risking canter collision with the horse ahead. Can you say a bit more about his teaching the horse to stop going forward? I was told by another local owner of a Spanish horse that Iberian horses dont like to halt out hacking. Hers wouldnt. I took this as a challenge and had Grace halting nicely. We also rode halt trot transitions out hacking (I wasnt on Grace but saw her do this with a staff rider). Grace isnt around at the moment, so this is not an instant problem for me. And I dont imagine you got as far as canter in this large class? But is it just a question of repeating halt transitions without using the rein? Over and over? Andin trot too?
I agree that Mark advises against boring your horse with something it already knows. Whereas Brannaman asks for repetition. There is tho a further element to take into account here - That some of the Brannaman exercises I watched were exercises to make the horse supple and equal on both reins - not merely behavioural training. When one is asking a horse to change its behaviour, Mark would say you dont need to repeat the lesson over and over again. The horse will remember. I can give you a good example of this. I am riding a horse that eats with almost every client and last week (shame) he snatched a mouthful when out with me.
I agree with Brannaman that if I chat the horse does its own thing, so we were talking a lot as we let the horses stretch and cool off as we approached home. And it occurred to me that (in spite of my inattention) he hadnt made any attempt to eat. The RI I was with said no. I had shown him there was no eating while I was on board. Shown him earlier in the ride and he remembered.
I guess that is what Mark means by not repeating lessons - but on the other hand as Brannamann says you need to ride the horse a hundred times, always consistently delivering the message that there is to be no eating.
I agree with what he and Mark says = that we need to give the horse 100% of our attention. Or rather Mark says the horse will never give you more of his attention than you are devoting to him. I also agree that on a well mannered horse like Larry, I can chat and he behaves. And on a well mannered horse you just go out for a ride. Nothing challenges you, so you dont put into your riding the creative effort you may make on another less well behaved horse. I am very conscious of that at the moment. That I can so easily become an elderly client who goes out for a chat - whereas I used to be the New rider who did her homework out on hacks. I guess Mark would say that hacking is work for the horse - tho there will be days when his work is to carry us along while we talk to a friend?
Do you have any thoughts KPnut on how occupied with our horse Brannaman thinks we should be on a hack? Since he teaches from the back of a horse, and often just sitting on his horse watching students - it can be seen that he does not give his horse 100% attention all the time.
About the number of horses at the clinic - yes that is what I saw and why I said I wouldnt ride at a Brannaman clinic. But I remember a clinic by Leslie Desmond where all the horses were let free in the arena together and the social order and the horses interaction with each other was a bit of an education. After all , if Amber is going to compete with you at crowded venues, her behaviour has be consistent even when surrounded by a lot of other animals and people. If she walked off too fast with you? How did Brannaman ask you to react?
Was it just to circle?
You say you dont want your twins to do this with their horses. I think that is a pity - children have fun trying these things. I was allowed to try the things I had seen with Grace (her owner was there) and I can do stuff with any RS horse I ride. I think it improves their attention to me and their behaviour. It is also useful to have these little circling and backing routines to use as punishment. Or to calm a horse if you come out of the yard on a wildly excited horse. I cant think of anything Brannaman shows in his clinics that could do any harm.
But mostly because I have seen with my grand daughter - and indeed with Lesleie Desmond teaching kids - this kind of stuff is fun. And in the end makes riding safer for them.
The Branamann clan thing with his devoted disciples - is all about that. A sort of safety net that if you follow him, your horse is less likely to hurt you. And the authority seems quite blokish - like Maxwell. Branamann is a ranch trainer working in a man's world. And also working to time. So he gets a move on. When I go to the yard to groom a horse or two, I have all the time in the world. Whereas staff members have a full day's work to complete. But most women , myself included, can benefit from taking more decisive authority over the horses they are riding. It just needs a clinic or an RI to tell us to up our control - and job's done.
How briliant that you got to ride, as many of my misgivings were about her being ridden by h someone else.
Just a few observations so you can comment (i.e. I am not getting at you or taking issue).
As a spectator I did watch the Buck gets on a green horse and shows how to control each foot - the front feet being cued with the reins. I didnt really "get this" and wonder if you can enlarge on it? It would seem from Rashid too that training a cow horse does involve more concentration on the forelegs than the riding methods taught in the UK.
Are you able now to move any one foot on Amber? I dont think I can do this.
Grace as per a recent thread did frighten me by risking canter collision with the horse ahead. Can you say a bit more about his teaching the horse to stop going forward? I was told by another local owner of a Spanish horse that Iberian horses dont like to halt out hacking. Hers wouldnt. I took this as a challenge and had Grace halting nicely. We also rode halt trot transitions out hacking (I wasnt on Grace but saw her do this with a staff rider). Grace isnt around at the moment, so this is not an instant problem for me. And I dont imagine you got as far as canter in this large class? But is it just a question of repeating halt transitions without using the rein? Over and over? Andin trot too?
I agree that Mark advises against boring your horse with something it already knows. Whereas Brannaman asks for repetition. There is tho a further element to take into account here - That some of the Brannaman exercises I watched were exercises to make the horse supple and equal on both reins - not merely behavioural training. When one is asking a horse to change its behaviour, Mark would say you dont need to repeat the lesson over and over again. The horse will remember. I can give you a good example of this. I am riding a horse that eats with almost every client and last week (shame) he snatched a mouthful when out with me.
I agree with Brannaman that if I chat the horse does its own thing, so we were talking a lot as we let the horses stretch and cool off as we approached home. And it occurred to me that (in spite of my inattention) he hadnt made any attempt to eat. The RI I was with said no. I had shown him there was no eating while I was on board. Shown him earlier in the ride and he remembered.
I guess that is what Mark means by not repeating lessons - but on the other hand as Brannamann says you need to ride the horse a hundred times, always consistently delivering the message that there is to be no eating.
I agree with what he and Mark says = that we need to give the horse 100% of our attention. Or rather Mark says the horse will never give you more of his attention than you are devoting to him. I also agree that on a well mannered horse like Larry, I can chat and he behaves. And on a well mannered horse you just go out for a ride. Nothing challenges you, so you dont put into your riding the creative effort you may make on another less well behaved horse. I am very conscious of that at the moment. That I can so easily become an elderly client who goes out for a chat - whereas I used to be the New rider who did her homework out on hacks. I guess Mark would say that hacking is work for the horse - tho there will be days when his work is to carry us along while we talk to a friend?
Do you have any thoughts KPnut on how occupied with our horse Brannaman thinks we should be on a hack? Since he teaches from the back of a horse, and often just sitting on his horse watching students - it can be seen that he does not give his horse 100% attention all the time.
About the number of horses at the clinic - yes that is what I saw and why I said I wouldnt ride at a Brannaman clinic. But I remember a clinic by Leslie Desmond where all the horses were let free in the arena together and the social order and the horses interaction with each other was a bit of an education. After all , if Amber is going to compete with you at crowded venues, her behaviour has be consistent even when surrounded by a lot of other animals and people. If she walked off too fast with you? How did Brannaman ask you to react?
Was it just to circle?
You say you dont want your twins to do this with their horses. I think that is a pity - children have fun trying these things. I was allowed to try the things I had seen with Grace (her owner was there) and I can do stuff with any RS horse I ride. I think it improves their attention to me and their behaviour. It is also useful to have these little circling and backing routines to use as punishment. Or to calm a horse if you come out of the yard on a wildly excited horse. I cant think of anything Brannaman shows in his clinics that could do any harm.
But mostly because I have seen with my grand daughter - and indeed with Lesleie Desmond teaching kids - this kind of stuff is fun. And in the end makes riding safer for them.
The Branamann clan thing with his devoted disciples - is all about that. A sort of safety net that if you follow him, your horse is less likely to hurt you. And the authority seems quite blokish - like Maxwell. Branamann is a ranch trainer working in a man's world. And also working to time. So he gets a move on. When I go to the yard to groom a horse or two, I have all the time in the world. Whereas staff members have a full day's work to complete. But most women , myself included, can benefit from taking more decisive authority over the horses they are riding. It just needs a clinic or an RI to tell us to up our control - and job's done.
That is exactly what I was thinking domane, I find it all a bit too contrived I guess, personally I can't see anything wrong in going out for a hack on a nice morning, with your horse and enjoying a chat with your friends or enjoying the scenery, I'm never switched off from Belle out hacking to be fair but I'm not constantly checking she's doing my bidding.
Thanks for a very thoughtful reply. I do love these discussions!
I will try and respond where I can recall anything about what you are asking about. But of course I am no expert either and there was a lot to take in.
From what I understood: the reins are used to request lateral flexion (and later vertical flexion) and to back up a body/seat request to slow or stop when necessary. The front shoulders were controlled with the outside leg in front of the girth and the hind quarters controlled by the inside leg behind the girth - contrary to how we normally ride in the UK.
The rein is also there to 'offer a feel' and to block an unwanted movement. Offering a feel seems to be around guiding the horse not driving it or pulling on it. So on the ground if you want the horse to circle on the left rein your left hand would 'offer a feel' by extending the line out to the left inviting the horse to step that way, and if that leads to no response you drive from behind with the flag (Buck does not allow whips - probably because of his experience of extensive physical whippings as a child). From the saddle, offering a feel seems to involve moving the rein one way or another, asking for lateral flexion, or holding the rein still with a little pressure through the bit asking for vertical flexion and releasing as soon as the horse softens to you (flexes in the desired plane).
So for example: if you are in halt and want the right front leg to step back and to the side you would ask for lateral flexion with the right rein (or rather 'feel for' lateral flexion). Then you would put the outside leg on in front of the girth. You would block any forward movement with the hand (not pulling back but blocking forward). As the horse steps across you'd release.
Walking on a circle you will be asking for a little flexion with the inside rein, both legs will be on lightly but neutral, basically saying 'keep going'. To roll the hindquarters across you would flex to the inside and put your inside leg on behind the girth. You do all these movement one at a time,, releasing and repeating till the movements are clear to the horse, then you can start combining them. You'd repeat this ad infinitum with progressively lighter cues until you can't really see any movement of legs at all and the hands merely gently guide.
Amber will now do all these movements but not with the lightness, balance, rhythm, smoothness or accuracy Buck would consider acceptable! And I can't combine them all. By the end some people could back circles just using the individual movements in a blended way.
There were various things about stopping: first the horse should be 'with you' in the first place so you choose the pace from halt to slow walk, (and I mean SLOOOOOOOOW) through to a real forward march. And just keep practicing that up and down from halt to march and back again unpredictably. But to get there in the first place the horse had to be with you and listening. If he wasn't with you the solution then used depended on why not. In Amber's case she was over excited and she was possibly remembering her hunting days. After all she has never ridden in a crowd before apart from the hunting they did with her when breaking her in. So she might have learnt that in groups you all go together and very fast! And you didn't listen to riders but other horses. So she was worked up and worked up horses can't listen or learn so circles/ precise school movements ((that she already knew) were the answer. For other horses, inattention, bracing or simply not really seeing that there was any need to stop instantly was the problem. This included the horse Buck was on. He was happy to drift to a stop and he always braced through the transition but Buck wanted an instant and brace free stop. He used the 'with authority' cue plus he did not release until the horse was soft which in practice meant he backed up for about 10 paces before stopping each time. And he did it again and again. Soft cue, then if no response, firm cue. No release till no brace. Soon the horse was stopping much more quickly and much more softly with no bracing. Eventually you have full control of all 4 feet in walk, then trot, then canter, And that means hours upon hours of practicing the control with various versions of the movements discussed above in all the gaits and at all speeds within each gait. Buck said it takes him about a year to 'make' a horse to that level - which he considers 'the basics'.
That's a really good point which I had not considered. Thank-you.
I think he multi-tasks! In watching him it was interesting that every few minutes - more often probably - he would just ask the horse to do something. 1 step forward, one step back. He would also never allow the horse to rub a nose on a leg, sniff the floor. It seemed clear that even while teaching he was also still riding and expected the horse to be listening and waiting. As for how occupied we should be, he thinks we should ride every step! I don't though and probably won't. I lack patience and do sometimes just want to switch off and chill out on a ride!
The safety element is really important. Buck was saying people who are happy to treat their horses like mechanical carnival horses are the reckless ones. You are entrusting your life to a flight animal and you aren't paying attention! Also a horse will spin, spook or run off to save himself if he does not feel you are in total control. I would be happy for the children to do it, but I don't think Katie is very interested. She learnt that of the 15 hours of work we did, less than one of them was in a gait other than walk! So I am not making them approach riding in this highly focused and disciplined way. However I am using it myself with Max - doing regular groundwork with him - but not with Oscar as Max can be unsafe at times, whereas Oscar just needs riding properly and he will do as he is told. Perhaps they will get enthused through my example?!!
I will try and respond where I can recall anything about what you are asking about. But of course I am no expert either and there was a lot to take in.
From what I understood: the reins are used to request lateral flexion (and later vertical flexion) and to back up a body/seat request to slow or stop when necessary. The front shoulders were controlled with the outside leg in front of the girth and the hind quarters controlled by the inside leg behind the girth - contrary to how we normally ride in the UK.
The rein is also there to 'offer a feel' and to block an unwanted movement. Offering a feel seems to be around guiding the horse not driving it or pulling on it. So on the ground if you want the horse to circle on the left rein your left hand would 'offer a feel' by extending the line out to the left inviting the horse to step that way, and if that leads to no response you drive from behind with the flag (Buck does not allow whips - probably because of his experience of extensive physical whippings as a child). From the saddle, offering a feel seems to involve moving the rein one way or another, asking for lateral flexion, or holding the rein still with a little pressure through the bit asking for vertical flexion and releasing as soon as the horse softens to you (flexes in the desired plane).
So for example: if you are in halt and want the right front leg to step back and to the side you would ask for lateral flexion with the right rein (or rather 'feel for' lateral flexion). Then you would put the outside leg on in front of the girth. You would block any forward movement with the hand (not pulling back but blocking forward). As the horse steps across you'd release.
Walking on a circle you will be asking for a little flexion with the inside rein, both legs will be on lightly but neutral, basically saying 'keep going'. To roll the hindquarters across you would flex to the inside and put your inside leg on behind the girth. You do all these movement one at a time,, releasing and repeating till the movements are clear to the horse, then you can start combining them. You'd repeat this ad infinitum with progressively lighter cues until you can't really see any movement of legs at all and the hands merely gently guide.
Amber will now do all these movements but not with the lightness, balance, rhythm, smoothness or accuracy Buck would consider acceptable! And I can't combine them all. By the end some people could back circles just using the individual movements in a blended way.
There were various things about stopping: first the horse should be 'with you' in the first place so you choose the pace from halt to slow walk, (and I mean SLOOOOOOOOW) through to a real forward march. And just keep practicing that up and down from halt to march and back again unpredictably. But to get there in the first place the horse had to be with you and listening. If he wasn't with you the solution then used depended on why not. In Amber's case she was over excited and she was possibly remembering her hunting days. After all she has never ridden in a crowd before apart from the hunting they did with her when breaking her in. So she might have learnt that in groups you all go together and very fast! And you didn't listen to riders but other horses. So she was worked up and worked up horses can't listen or learn so circles/ precise school movements ((that she already knew) were the answer. For other horses, inattention, bracing or simply not really seeing that there was any need to stop instantly was the problem. This included the horse Buck was on. He was happy to drift to a stop and he always braced through the transition but Buck wanted an instant and brace free stop. He used the 'with authority' cue plus he did not release until the horse was soft which in practice meant he backed up for about 10 paces before stopping each time. And he did it again and again. Soft cue, then if no response, firm cue. No release till no brace. Soon the horse was stopping much more quickly and much more softly with no bracing. Eventually you have full control of all 4 feet in walk, then trot, then canter, And that means hours upon hours of practicing the control with various versions of the movements discussed above in all the gaits and at all speeds within each gait. Buck said it takes him about a year to 'make' a horse to that level - which he considers 'the basics'.
That's a really good point which I had not considered. Thank-you.
I think he multi-tasks! In watching him it was interesting that every few minutes - more often probably - he would just ask the horse to do something. 1 step forward, one step back. He would also never allow the horse to rub a nose on a leg, sniff the floor. It seemed clear that even while teaching he was also still riding and expected the horse to be listening and waiting. As for how occupied we should be, he thinks we should ride every step! I don't though and probably won't. I lack patience and do sometimes just want to switch off and chill out on a ride!
The safety element is really important. Buck was saying people who are happy to treat their horses like mechanical carnival horses are the reckless ones. You are entrusting your life to a flight animal and you aren't paying attention! Also a horse will spin, spook or run off to save himself if he does not feel you are in total control. I would be happy for the children to do it, but I don't think Katie is very interested. She learnt that of the 15 hours of work we did, less than one of them was in a gait other than walk! So I am not making them approach riding in this highly focused and disciplined way. However I am using it myself with Max - doing regular groundwork with him - but not with Oscar as Max can be unsafe at times, whereas Oscar just needs riding properly and he will do as he is told. Perhaps they will get enthused through my example?!!
Nope me neither!! I found myself thinking 'It's meant to be FUN' more than once! But you might find you are more attuned to her (and her to you) than you realise.
Also I guess people can just take it as far as they want. If I was a totally slavish devotee (which I am absolutely not - I pick and choose) I would spend the next year doing nothing but walking round in circles! No thanks. I did know a Parelli person like that - she never ever got past Level Whatever-She-Was-On and basically just did the same thing day after day year after year. I am not actually a cowboy and I don;t need my horses to be able to go from halt to gallop and back again in a heartbeat or to be perfect.
I love that you take what is useful for you from all the respected people out there, without being slavishly drawn to one method, my old RI was just the same, a little bit from here and a little bit from there and her favorite thing was saying 'you need to work with the horse in front of you at the time, even if it's the same horse you always work with, every day can be different'. She im sure pinched that from somewhere, or maybe one of the 'great guru's' pinched it from her
Anyway, Amber did really well to cope with the clinic - well done both of you.
This is interesting and certainly worth thinking about for me. I am guilty of letting Raf rub his nose on his leg while we're out hacking or if he's cooling down I'll let him stretch and sniff the ground as we walk along. (Also - horrors! - I sometimes let him graze when we're on long hacks as I think a few hours is a long time for a trickle feeder not to eat).
In my human head, Raf should be happy with this approach and be less pleased with me when we have a lesson in which I am motivated by my instructor to make him work hard and (in my opinion) be quite harsh with him. However, I have often observed that at the end of a hard lesson Raf is far more focused on me and in general seems more sprightly, ears forward and 'happier' than he does after one of my half-arsed schooling sessions or a leisurely hack.
Being honest I agree with those who say it's very contrived and humanising.
Having had a 16yr relationship with my boy I can say that we share responsibility for decision making, we have an understanding without me having to be in his case constantly. I have a true bond with Kia, I can think it and he does it, I also know by how he feels under me if something is wrong or imminent. I've done it for so long it's subconscious.
From what has been written above I took that you have to be on the horses case constantly, nag nag nagging away, that to me does not teach a horse self reliance which I actually value in my horses, Kia's sense of self preservation has gotten us out of many a tight spot in sj/XC/hunting and common riding, him sorting himself out and me just sitting there letting him. Me interfering could have had us both in a heap. So these methods these people peddle seem to me to be taking away any free will or thinking of your horse.
The fact that she coped with a busy atmosphere is a plus, bit mind blowing for something with her lack of experience so well done Amber but reading all of that I can say that I still prefer good old common sense and not contrived anthropomorphic assignment. To me it's just trying to make an animal a human and that just doesn't work IME.
Having had a 16yr relationship with my boy I can say that we share responsibility for decision making, we have an understanding without me having to be in his case constantly. I have a true bond with Kia, I can think it and he does it, I also know by how he feels under me if something is wrong or imminent. I've done it for so long it's subconscious.
From what has been written above I took that you have to be on the horses case constantly, nag nag nagging away, that to me does not teach a horse self reliance which I actually value in my horses, Kia's sense of self preservation has gotten us out of many a tight spot in sj/XC/hunting and common riding, him sorting himself out and me just sitting there letting him. Me interfering could have had us both in a heap. So these methods these people peddle seem to me to be taking away any free will or thinking of your horse.
The fact that she coped with a busy atmosphere is a plus, bit mind blowing for something with her lack of experience so well done Amber but reading all of that I can say that I still prefer good old common sense and not contrived anthropomorphic assignment. To me it's just trying to make an animal a human and that just doesn't work IME.
very interesting and thanks for posting. I agree it sounds like she did well in that atmosphere and great for you to get to ride.
if i was tempted before though, having read all that i wouldnt go to one of these clinics. I think its great you can see just to take the bits you like and not subscribe to this ‘way’ - its all very contrived and tbh I think dumbs down what is natural, intuitive horsemanship for a lot of people. i dont mean that to sound big headed but a lot of what he is teaching comes naturally to a lot of people, me included really. But, i guess he’s seen a market to teach it to people for whom it doesnt and he makes a good buck out of it. (no pun!)
When I am hacking, I DO switch off and relax but I school my horses to be ‘on standby’ - i dont consider i have to ‘ride every stride’ and actually that is one of my pet hates and Skye was one who needed that when I got her, not just because she was lazy.Now she understands a forward aid means forward and active at that - dont deviate or slow down until I say so, its like setting cruise control. I dont consider that to be leaving her to her own devices, I consider it to be her understanding that she has to maintain what I have asked until I ask for something different.
if i was tempted before though, having read all that i wouldnt go to one of these clinics. I think its great you can see just to take the bits you like and not subscribe to this ‘way’ - its all very contrived and tbh I think dumbs down what is natural, intuitive horsemanship for a lot of people. i dont mean that to sound big headed but a lot of what he is teaching comes naturally to a lot of people, me included really. But, i guess he’s seen a market to teach it to people for whom it doesnt and he makes a good buck out of it. (no pun!)
When I am hacking, I DO switch off and relax but I school my horses to be ‘on standby’ - i dont consider i have to ‘ride every stride’ and actually that is one of my pet hates and Skye was one who needed that when I got her, not just because she was lazy.Now she understands a forward aid means forward and active at that - dont deviate or slow down until I say so, its like setting cruise control. I dont consider that to be leaving her to her own devices, I consider it to be her understanding that she has to maintain what I have asked until I ask for something different.
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