The stupid hunt ....

[Bertie]

I have found this thread to be extremely interesting and enlightening, to an extent I am against the cold blooded nature of fox hunting when there are other less brutal forms of undertaking a days hunting. However, that said I had a long and extremely interesting conversation with someone who is very much part of a hunt and after hearing their explanations and reasonings my views were very much changed.

Some of the things they sited were extremely interesting and led me to believe it is not as brutal or barbaric as I first thought.

They also explained that in their local villages the hunt helps to keep their pubs and other local businesses going during the winter. As business in their area is seasonal and once the tourists stop coming the hunt meets keep people coming into the local pubs etc once a week or fortnight.

 

[Mary Poppins]

Some of the things they sited were extremely interesting and led me to believe it is not as brutal or barbaric as I first thought.

I would be interested to hear what they said to change your views.

As for the local businesses - people still go to the pub as part of a drag hunt. If they don't then this could be incorporated into the ride by the hunt organisers. All sponsored/pleasure rides have a start and end point and they could be organised to be near a pub. No-one is saying that the rides and meets should stop - simply that the fox being killed should be removed from the equation.

 

[hedgehunter78]

I have to agree with this. The Burns enquiry, the official government investigation into hunting with dogs, found that as few as 400 jobs would be lost if fox hunting was banned in the UK and fully replaced with drag hunting. Pro hunters had originally claimed it would be 16,000 jobs on the line which proved to a bit of an exaggeration on their part.

Considering that more people can lose their jobs from the closing of one factory in this country, I don't really think that the "lose jobs, lose home and livelihood" argument really stands up in this. If it was a case of losing jobs, well, you just have to do what everyone else does in times of redundancy and get another job. And neither do I buy the argument of "it's all we know, it's all we have ever done, how are we supposed to get another job". My grandfather worked for the same company for 40 years since he left school and was made redundant - he managed to get another job.

I would never hunt with dogs as the action of killing an animal for sport does not sit comfortably with me, I have no friends who hunt either as they all feel the same. I will however, he attending a drag hunt next year for the first time. None of my horse riding friends would consider fox hunting as an acceptable form of enjoying their equestrian activities but most of them would go drag hunting given the chance. Does that not signify that more people would be injecting funds into drag hunting therefore possibly increasing job availability in this area? Just a thought.

Fair enough about being able to find another job but how many factory workers who have lost their jobs also loose their homes and have to move their childs school.?
I very nearly lost my Husband due to the bloody ban as he was made redundant due to the hunt only being able to afford one member of staff yes you can bumble on about poor foxes and being doo gooders but please have a thought for what hunt staff have been and are still going through.Whats wrong with people nowadays,there never used to be this amount of people who were antis?
So on another note no doubt you lot on here that dont approve of hunting WILL approve of the RSPCA ect spending a fortune on trying to get hunting banned and trying to cure wildlife that really dosnt have a chance of survival after maybe being hit by a car or whatever,especially after they have had it cooked up in a cage hand feeding it!
When there are hundreds of dogs and cats out there which would benefit on the wasted money spent on finding them loving homes for life.

 

[hedgehunter78]

I would be interested to hear what they said to change your views.

As for the local businesses - people still go to the pub as part of a drag hunt. If they don't then this could be incorporated into the ride by the hunt organisers. All sponsored/pleasure rides have a start and end point and they could be organised to be near a pub. No-one is saying that the rides and meets should stop - simply that the fox being killed should be removed from the equation.

So what should we do with all the foxes with mange?
Or the ones that have been hit by a car and are on 3 legs suffering a slow and painful death?
A gun i hear you say....Can your gun find a fox in a stack of bales,under a shed ect?

 

[Yann]

HH78, I'm afraid the 'can't shoot foxes' argument doesn't hold much water, since that's exactly how they are controlled when needed in the vast areas of the country where hunts never go.

 

[Morganna]

Fair enough about being able to find another job but how many factory workers who have lost their jobs also loose their homes and have to move their childs school.?
I very nearly lost my Husband due to the bloody ban as he was made redundant due to the hunt only being able to afford one member of staff yes you can bumble on about poor foxes and being doo gooders but please have a thought for what hunt staff have been and are still going through.Whats wrong with people nowadays,there never used to be this amount of people who were antis?
So on another note no doubt you lot on here that dont approve of hunting WILL approve of the RSPCA ect spending a fortune on trying to get hunting banned and trying to cure wildlife that really dosnt have a chance of survival after maybe being hit by a car or whatever,especially after they have had it cooked up in a cage hand feeding it!
When there are hundreds of dogs and cats out there which would benefit on the wasted money spent on finding them loving homes for life.

I am by no means a doo gooder and I don't bumble on about poor foxes - I am fully aware of the nuisance they cause to farmers and the countryside in general and I am sorry to hear about your husband but redundancy is, sadly, a very real fact of life for most people - my friend recently moved towns and her own job and her childrens schools to accomodate her husbands new position in the next town after redundancy from his city centre company so this is not something exclusive to country workers - it happens and unfortunately is a harsh reality of todays society. One foul swoop from head office and 1000 people are out of a job and nobody seems to give that a second thought these days, which is really the point I was making about the hunt - they cannot use this as an excuse for fox hunting to remain in place especially when they have the option of introducing drag hunting, with dogs and horses still in use and people still in jobs. Surely if they were that concerned about their staff they would be eager to embrace this alternative?

 

[Mary Poppins]

So what should we do with all the foxes with mange?
Or the ones that have been hit by a car and are on 3 legs suffering a slow and painful death?
A gun i hear you say....Can your gun find a fox in a stack of bales,under a shed ect?

These issues have nothing to do with foxhunting at all. All sorts of animals (especially deer) are knocked down on our roads every day. Disease gets spread through wild animals and some do die a slow and painful death. I am not saying that we can or should prevent the natural death of our wild animals (although I find it sad that some drivers don't stop when they have hit an animal but thats another issue). An injured animal may well be eaten by another - that is nature.

I also agree that the world isn't perfect that there is so much to do in the area of animal welfare. However, I just don't agree with a 'sport' where an animal is chased and killed - just because the riders find it exciting. I find it morally wrong that in this day and age people who claim to be animal lovers somehow find this acceptable.

 

[Bertie]

Mary Poppins - I would love for you to sit down with the person I sat with and listen to the reasons and explanations, I doubt that they would change your mind or even want to change it completely but I'm sure you'd leave having more of an understanding the otherside a little more. In all honesty, I don't think I could do justice to what they were saying, they sited the reasons such as jobs and livlihoods of local people, controlling the number of foxes in the area (please note that this hunt covered a vast area with lots of common land and in the traditional way is a control issue), explained that the foxes that are chased and caught by the hound(s) tend to be those that are not at their best, they are ill, injured etc survival of the fittest, a good healthy fox will 9 times out of 10 get away.

Before I spoke to the said person about hunting I must admit that I was also of the opinion that there are far more important things for a government to be thinking about than fox hunting. Why was so much time, energy and most importantly money spent on banning hunting. All those things could have been far better used and channelled into education, health, jobs etc

 

[hedgehunter78]

Mary Poppins - I would love for you to sit down with the person I sat with and listen to the reasons and explanations, I doubt that they would change your mind or even want to change it completely but I'm sure you'd leave having more of an understanding the otherside a little more. In all honesty, I don't think I could do justice to what they were saying, they sited the reasons such as jobs and livlihoods of local people, controlling the number of foxes in the area (please note that this hunt covered a vast area with lots of common land and in the traditional way is a control issue), explained that the foxes that are chased and caught by the hound(s) tend to be those that are not at their best, they are ill, injured etc survival of the fittest, a good healthy fox will 9 times out of 10 get away.

Before I spoke to the said person about hunting I must admit that I was also of the opinion that there are far more important things for a government to be thinking about than fox hunting. Why was so much time, energy and most importantly money spent on banning hunting. All those things could have been far better used and channelled into education, health, jobs etc

Ive tried so many times to explain this but some folk are too stuck in their ways to even give it a thought!

 

[hedgehunter78]

These issues have nothing to do with foxhunting at all. All sorts of animals (especially deer) are knocked down on our roads every day. Disease gets spread through wild animals and some do die a slow and painful death. I am not saying that we can or should prevent the natural death of our wild animals (although I find it sad that some drivers don't stop when they have hit an animal but thats another issue). An injured animal may well be eaten by another - that is nature.

I also agree that the world isn't perfect that there is so much to do in the area of animal welfare. However, I just don't agree with a 'sport' where an animal is chased and killed - just because the riders find it exciting. I find it morally wrong that in this day and age people who claim to be animal lovers somehow find this acceptable.

So tell me,why are they nothing to do with hunting?
Most foxes a pack of hounds account for are ill,old ect...
Guns,folk seem to think that it is less painful for a fox to be shot,what i am trying to explain is if a fox with mange crawled under a farm shed it would be more likley that hounds would find it then it could be put out of its misery.

 

[carrimclaren]

At the end of the day it is and always will be a subject that is controversial whatever side of it you sit. As in all walks of life there will be the for side and the against side and then the sat on the fence side. I think that sometimes people need to have that little bit of respect for other people's views and opinions whether they differ from your own or not. The only way we learn in life is to listen to other people's opinions and facts and formulate our own opinions and i think people should be able to express theirs freely and without fearing that the mob are going to tear their throats out because they have a differing opinion. I think it's a sad day when people can't sit down and debate things as friends without scoffing, sneering and being downright rude to people about their beliefs. I don't bother talking about my views on hunting, why should i when people aren't interested in my personal views on it. People don't listen when you talk about it, they wait for the first moment they can rip it apart as if you're a government candidate and not just an average joe expressing an opinion, whether it be for or against.
I'm really surprised that this topic hasn't been closed yet as it has gone so far from the original posters first post and into yet again another hunting debate.

 

[Mary Poppins]

Guns,folk seem to think that it is less painful for a fox to be shot,what i am trying to explain is if a fox with mange crawled under a farm shed it would be more likley that hounds would find it then it could be put out of its misery.

I think that the fox with mange should be allowed to die in peace. Just because fox hunting kills the weakest foxes, this doesn't make it right. If we wanted to ensure that weak wild animals did not have a slow death then a deloyment of people with guns should be sent around to kill them. I don't believe in this either. Wild animals should be allowed to live and die as nature intended.

People who go foxhunting do not do it because they want to kill weak foxes. They do it because it is fun and exciting and they turn a blind eye to any suffering that they cause.

 

[Mary Poppins]

I'm really surprised that this topic hasn't been closed yet as it has gone so far from the original posters first post and into yet again another hunting debate.

What is so wrong with debate? Debate is how we influence the future and surely what discussion forums are about. I would be sad to have a thread closed down just because we don't agree. I am really interested to hear the pro-hunt arguement and am being polite and considerate in my responses. It's just that no-one has said anything so far to make me think that fox hunting is acceptable.

 

[colettybetty]

Just out of interest, has anyone had they opinion changed or even swayed by this very long thread ? Although its been very interesting, mine hasn't.

 

[colettybetty]

Ah, cross posted MP. Great minds think alike ! I love a good debate too.
Soz, Carrimclaren, I think you're right to a certain extent. Although the debate is good, I don't think it changes anything, whatever side of the fence you're on.

 

[Francis Burton]

I don't bother talking about my views on hunting, why should i when people aren't interested in my personal views on it. People don't listen when you talk about it, they wait for the first moment they can rip it apart as if you're a government candidate and not just an average joe expressing an opinion, whether it be for or against.

But I am interested in personal views. How else does one come to really understand the other person's point of view (whatever one's own opinion is)? I think it's important at least to try.

I'm really surprised that this topic hasn't been closed yet as it has gone so far from the original posters first post and into yet again another hunting debate.

I'm not sure what good would come from closing the topic and stifling discussion. If things get nasty, then yes, close it - but I don't think that has happened yet. And I do think interesting issues are still coming up - such as the issue of unemployment caused by hunt ban legislation.

 

[hedgehunter78]

I think that the fox with mange should be allowed to die in peace. Just because fox hunting kills the weakest foxes, this doesn't make it right. If we wanted to ensure that weak wild animals did not have a slow death then a deloyment of people with guns should be sent around to kill them. I don't believe in this either. Wild animals should be allowed to live and die as nature intended.

People who go foxhunting do not do it because they want to kill weak foxes. They do it because it is fun and exciting and they turn a blind eye to any suffering that they cause.[/QUOTE]


Thats a rather big and untrue statement you have made there.So how about these folk that call themselfs anti's?
At one hunt that we worked at the ...anti's would stand on the road(because they wernt allowed on private land and blow a horn in the hope that hounds would come away from the huntsman,at one point 3 hounds got run over-Another time the "anti's" hid behind some cover and when hounds went past them they sprayed something(not sure what it was)in their faces.This was befor the ban!
Sorry went off topic a little there....But i dont think it right for you to make a statement that people that go foxhunting only do it as it is fun and exciting.

 

[Yann]

I think it's a sad day when people can't sit down and debate things as friends without scoffing, sneering and being downright rude to people about their beliefs.

To be fair I don't think that's happened on this thread has it?

Just out of interest, has anyone had they opinion changed or even swayed by this very long thread ? Although its been very interesting, mine hasn't.

I don't think that's normally a very likely outcome but for me discussions like this serve two purposes, firstly to better understand the opposing viewpoint and secondly to examine and test my own beliefs on the subject. Many of my thoughts on the matter have changed over the years as I have learned and experienced more, although I'm still personally fundamentally an anti where the bloodsport aspect is concerned.

 

[carrimclaren]

But I am interested in personal views. How else does one come to really understand the other person's point of view (whatever one's own opinion is)? I think it's important at least to try.

Sorry, confusing bit there, it was more meant towards me saying things in real life in social circles rather than on here. I've had quite a few discussions in real life that left me with a bad taste in my mouth about discussing hunting as i find people just don't want to listen properly to other people's views hence why i say i wish people wouldn't sneer and scoff etc.

Yann/whoever - if this thread hasn't turned out like that then that's great that people can talk properly and informatively about their beliefs.
What my post was trying to say was that if people could talk properly and without the nastiness then life would be a lot easier and people could listen to others about their beliefs better. It was more a general statement about what i've found with regards to when this topic is discussed. I'm all for people debating respectfully, but a debate is meant to be two-way. I suppose i was generalising when i made my post, in real life (not here) i've tended to find it's usually a one-way debate, with me getting the flack usually
p.s. you will have to excuse me if i don't come across right, i struggle to find the right words sometimes and the right way of putting things.

 

[Mary Poppins]

But i dont think it right for you to make a statement that people that go foxhunting only do it as it is fun and exciting.

So why do people go hunting then? We have already established that hunting doesn't kill many healthy foxes as 9 out of 10 of them get away. Therefore foxhunting cannot be an effective way of controling fox numbers. Hunting does kill weak, ill foxes which are not a threat to farmers. Therefore, if hunting is not an effective method of limiting the number of foxes I would suggest that the main reason lies in the social aspect, the unpredictabiilty and the thrill of the chase. I have no doubt that it is a very exciting day out. I wonder how the 1 in 10 fox feels as the hounds get hold of it?