I dont want to burst anyones bubble about shooting foxes being the nicest way for them to be controlled, but some people are a little mis-informed.
I go lamping regulary, and not every shot fox is killed out right. It really depends on the shooter and his skill. Also depends on that split second they pull the trigger, if the fox moves etc. Sometimes getting to a shot fox or finding him is impossible. So it can sometimes be a bad way to go.
People go lamping for the fun and excitment/chase as well though, it is not always the farmers themselves that go out lamping.
I go lamping regulary, and not every shot fox is killed out right. It really depends on the shooter and his skill. Also depends on that split second they pull the trigger, if the fox moves etc. Sometimes getting to a shot fox or finding him is impossible. So it can sometimes be a bad way to go.
People go lamping for the fun and excitment/chase as well though, it is not always the farmers themselves that go out lamping.
I hunt and enjoy it so am pinning my colours to the mast and if I know the hunt is near I keep mine in, if I am not with them. I also use the meet card so I know what is happening when, BUT if they came charging through without notice due to a change of meet and a problem resulted I would be less than pleased. Courtesy works all ways.
Totally agree Mary Poppins,
I also dont understand why people who hunt foxes havn't answered my question the other day about how they feel about Africans hunting and killing Elephants that ruin their crops.
Couldn't agree more. There's a tale round here about one very young and stupid master who tore across the local golf course. One of the field masters at the time says he just sat there and thought oh god here we go. Everyone slammed their anchors on but oh no he headed across Hole 18
But to be fair when they're around this neck of the woods nowadays the yard owners, farriers and hunt staff all try and work by word of mouth and let everyone know.
Plus there was that case recently when a dog walker and his son were shot by a lamper. Cant recall if one was killed or not but not ideal really.
Sorry this was a few pages ago, but i have just got in from work.
As i said before, i'm not particularly sensitive when it comes to the killing of them and yes i am guilty of being able to turn a blind eye and just not think about it... however, that does not mean i am not an animal lover. I just put wild and domesticated animals in different leagues. I get very emotionally attached to all my animals (horses, dogs, cats, etc etc) and will give them a 10* home and love. I would happily go on a drag hunt if it was as easy/convenient/cheap/safe to get to as the foxhunt(s) i go with. I work all hours managing a yard over the winter so it has to fit in with my schedule/horses when and if i can go. Because i am based on a hunting yard, it is very easy for me to arrange it.
I don't want to anger/upset anyone, but i understand totally how it would. I just want to be totally honest about my reasons for doing it. People aren't supposed to agree on emotive subjects such as this, we will all have differing views, but as has been suggested before on here, it is good to share them. (Yes i have changed my tune from earlier saying it would be best to close it!
If the mods are happy, that's good enough for me! 
)I also want to add some of my experiences with foxhunting over the years in that they haven't all been about catching and killing foxes. On about 6 or 7 occasions now i have been out hunting and been on some long runs in persuit of foxes, after which the master(s) have called off the hounds, saluted the fox, said goodnight and let it go. On another occasion, my huntmaster friend entered a field where a family of about 9 foxes ran across in the distance, he saluted them, they held the hounds back and let them be. Perhaps i have been lucky with these experiences, and i have no doubt that there are some of you out there with terrible hunting stories that made you see it in a different light.
Sorry, I havent read thro all the posts since my last one, so maybe my next question has been asked and answered, so sorry in advace if this a repitition. Leaving the foxes aside for a moment, is there anyone here reading this that has had a hoss badly injured/maimed/killed during this "sport" it would be nice to hear from you and if this has happened on a Jolly day out to you and yours, has it, be honast now, changed your views ie, would you have went out on that ride if you knew what was going to happen. Just interested.
ie, would you have went out on that ride if you knew what was going to happen. Just interested.
But that could happen during any activity, even hacking. I find there's less risk out hunting as you can choose what you jump or go round them. I think i know what you're saying though... i had a horrific rotational fall out team chasing 4yrs ago which resulted in my fabulous horse ruined 
. Needless to say, i was pretty darn bitter about the sport afterwards and vowed never to do it again as i was so devestated by what had happened. In 3 weeks time however, i will be doing another chase again... it was one of those things and i will move on from it.
. Needless to say, i was pretty darn bitter about the sport afterwards and vowed never to do it again as i was so devestated by what had happened. In 3 weeks time however, i will be doing another chase again... it was one of those things and i will move on from it.
Y
Yann
Guest
The question about horses is a fair one too, particularly on traditional hunts where there is no element of route pre planning. Hunt horses get worked exceedingly hard, often regardless of the ground conditions. It would be interesting to know how they fare long term in comparison to the horse population at large.
I
india
Guest
I’ve think it must be one of the most enlightening and polite discussions on foxhunting that I’ve ever come across. So hat’s off to most of you that’s contributed to it.
Ok, the information I’ve gathered so far from this thread is:
* Foxhunting is more of a social pastime than an effective means of pest control.
* Jobs have been lost due to the hunting ban.
* The fox sometimes suffers an agonising death.
* Foxes cache food for leaner times, not kill just for fun.
* The majority of hunt followers wouldn’t consider turning to drag hunting.
* Hunt followers are animal lovers but prefer not to think about one being killed when hunting.
Would you say those are fair comments?
Ok, the information I’ve gathered so far from this thread is:
* Foxhunting is more of a social pastime than an effective means of pest control.
* Jobs have been lost due to the hunting ban.
* The fox sometimes suffers an agonising death.
* Foxes cache food for leaner times, not kill just for fun.
* The majority of hunt followers wouldn’t consider turning to drag hunting.
* Hunt followers are animal lovers but prefer not to think about one being killed when hunting.
Would you say those are fair comments?
As I have said a few times over the last few hundred posts (a record?) I am neither pro nor anti, there are things that bother me in both camps to be honest.
The point about the welfare of the horses though is one that bothers me in the hunting camp, having seen for myself a few days ago the hunt master galloping his horse after the hounds straight down and then across a tarmac road. He lives in my village and has a reputation with all who know him of only keeping his "hunters" for 2 or 3 years because after that their legs are shot - I can see why now!
This may be going off thread a little, but iam very worried about the pheasant hunts that will take place in a fortnight and every other weekend onwards until the new year
I have been told that last year the pellets were landing on the roof of our barn, and the horses were stressed by this and have obviously got to be in while they are near by!
Iam wondering who is to blame if a horse on the yard gets injured while these shooters are sending the bullets in all directions and causing stress to our horses?
I have been told that last year the pellets were landing on the roof of our barn, and the horses were stressed by this and have obviously got to be in while they are near by!
Iam wondering who is to blame if a horse on the yard gets injured while these shooters are sending the bullets in all directions and causing stress to our horses?
Y
Yann
Guest
Whose land are they on? Speak to the landowner first, and if you don't get any joy speak to the police, nobody should be showered with pellets, they're acting in an unsafe manner.
I don't really agree with hunting TBH but I think that people who mistreat/overwork their horses will do so regardless of whether they are hunting or not. Irresponsible owners are irresponsible owners at the end of the day, 99% of people who hunt have their horses welfare at the front of their mind, it is no more dangerous than XC which nobody questions and significantly less dangerous than Team-Chasing IMO as at least the jumps are generally optional (there's always a few who find a way round trust me!). A horse can break its leg galloping around the field at the end of day (my horse tore both suspensories hooning around the field in the mud with his fieldmate ) Horses generally love sports such as hunting, team chasing etc... I'd rather see a horse have an active, enjoyable life with some element of risk than a dressage diva locked in a stable for 23 hours a day.
Like I say, I'm not especially pro-hunting, I don't enjoy any animals suffering and I find the whole thing a bit outdated to be honest for our otherwise reasonably civilised and informed society. But I don't think the "horses welfare" card is really one that can be played.
) Horses generally love sports such as hunting, team chasing etc... I'd rather see a horse have an active, enjoyable life with some element of risk than a dressage diva locked in a stable for 23 hours a day.Like I say, I'm not especially pro-hunting, I don't enjoy any animals suffering and I find the whole thing a bit outdated to be honest for our otherwise reasonably civilised and informed society. But I don't think the "horses welfare" card is really one that can be played.
I'll try and answer these briefly. I didn't want to get embroiled in this thread as I had come here just for info on riding, I already talk hunting on other forums!!
Hunting is a very social activity, the nicety of the meet and the social events around it - however they serve a purpose, to bring in cash. Hunt staff have often been heard to remark that their job would be easier with no field. However it is the field which pay caps and subscriptions and support the events, which brings in the cash to pay the bills. Running a pack of hounds is an expensive business.
Hunting is about pest control, not pest eradication - hunting in its traditional form would only catch the weaker foxes, there was no wounding - just 2 outcomes - kill or escape. The weaker, ill, foxes are the ones that are more likely to predate livestock and game birds. Thus by selectively killing in this way, you don't need to kill huge numbers to keep their damage to a minimum. Shooting, snaring and trapping cannot discriminate between the fox that might cause damage to stock and the fit, healthy, fox that is capable of killing wild rabbits, invertebrates etc. Foxes are also useful to farming in the right numbers as they eat slugs and other nasties that devour crops.
Job losses have been kept to a minimum thanks to the exemptions that we can use, however other legislation has caused indirect losses. In the past my local pack employed a kennelman and 2 hunt staff - new rules from the EU meant a fortune had to be invested in upgrading knacker facilties. As such they couldn't afford the kennelman.
In the past there would have been a host of staff in kennels, staff on the hunting field, grooms, valets and second horsemen. Economic realities and subscriptions at manageable levels has made this unsustainable. Now most packs will make do with 1 or 2 professional staff topped up with amateurs, and 1 or 2 grooms.
If a ban was ever tightened to remove the exemptions then job losses could be huge, Richard Matson completed a study on this in 1997 looking at the economic impact that a ban would have on a hypothetical pack of hounds.
The evidence is still not conclusive on this as so few post-mortems have been carried out. However for depth of study I trust the Vets for Wildlife Management research and their conclusions that in the majority of cases a foxhound weighing twice the amount of their quarry is likely to despatch it quickly and with minimal pain. Less pain than being shot and left to die of gangrene weeks later.
The majority of hunt followers pre-ban had great respect for the quarry and that remains, depending on what exemption is being employed. We don't hate the fox, we just love the hounds more. Foxes have no top predator, man in his wisdom eradicated the bear and the wolf from these shores. As a result something is needed to keep fox in check. Hunting serves that purpose. Pre-ban, most followers were just as pleased to see the fox get away as it to be killed. Yes there is a pest control job to do, but it is management, not eradication.
Hunting is a very social activity, the nicety of the meet and the social events around it - however they serve a purpose, to bring in cash. Hunt staff have often been heard to remark that their job would be easier with no field. However it is the field which pay caps and subscriptions and support the events, which brings in the cash to pay the bills. Running a pack of hounds is an expensive business.
Hunting is about pest control, not pest eradication - hunting in its traditional form would only catch the weaker foxes, there was no wounding - just 2 outcomes - kill or escape. The weaker, ill, foxes are the ones that are more likely to predate livestock and game birds. Thus by selectively killing in this way, you don't need to kill huge numbers to keep their damage to a minimum. Shooting, snaring and trapping cannot discriminate between the fox that might cause damage to stock and the fit, healthy, fox that is capable of killing wild rabbits, invertebrates etc. Foxes are also useful to farming in the right numbers as they eat slugs and other nasties that devour crops.
Job losses have been kept to a minimum thanks to the exemptions that we can use, however other legislation has caused indirect losses. In the past my local pack employed a kennelman and 2 hunt staff - new rules from the EU meant a fortune had to be invested in upgrading knacker facilties. As such they couldn't afford the kennelman.
In the past there would have been a host of staff in kennels, staff on the hunting field, grooms, valets and second horsemen. Economic realities and subscriptions at manageable levels has made this unsustainable. Now most packs will make do with 1 or 2 professional staff topped up with amateurs, and 1 or 2 grooms.
If a ban was ever tightened to remove the exemptions then job losses could be huge, Richard Matson completed a study on this in 1997 looking at the economic impact that a ban would have on a hypothetical pack of hounds.
The evidence is still not conclusive on this as so few post-mortems have been carried out. However for depth of study I trust the Vets for Wildlife Management research and their conclusions that in the majority of cases a foxhound weighing twice the amount of their quarry is likely to despatch it quickly and with minimal pain. Less pain than being shot and left to die of gangrene weeks later.
I have seen the photos after a fox found its way into my friend's secure barn, where the chickens were roosting. The scene was complete carnage with carcasses and feathers strewn over the whole floor.
Drag hunting just doesn't offer the same things - it is very much for the gallopy jumpy types, at traditional quarry hunts the fences are lower, designed for access, rather than a white knuckle ride. The speed is less and checks allow everyone to catch up. From the perspective of a foot follower, the local drag pack went through the coverts that take us 3 to 4 hours in just 30 minutes!! I just couldn't keep up...
The majority of hunt followers pre-ban had great respect for the quarry and that remains, depending on what exemption is being employed. We don't hate the fox, we just love the hounds more. Foxes have no top predator, man in his wisdom eradicated the bear and the wolf from these shores. As a result something is needed to keep fox in check. Hunting serves that purpose. Pre-ban, most followers were just as pleased to see the fox get away as it to be killed. Yes there is a pest control job to do, but it is management, not eradication.
500 pheasants is too much even for a large family of foxes! If they get in the pen you can say goodbye to all thats in there normally, so that statement is not true IMO and IM experiance!
I know plenty of dogs who would do the same if they got in there as well. I wonder what peoples reactions would be to a national crack down on Jack Russels?
I have to say although i love hunting i have to agree with the fact hunt horses do get worked hard. HOWEVER in my experience it's always been the silly followers not the actually hunt, for example a friend of mine (i use that term very loosly) went out for a full days hunting and trotted all the way back in the pitch black. This horse had very very bad leg problems and was on loan when the loaners found out they took her straight back.
It's people like that who give other people a bad name, when i took Nimby out after about and hour he lost a shoe so i just hacked him back as i didn't want to risk him hurting himself.
And i know alot of other people who are also extremely responsible with there horses just some people aren't. Lantern has been a hunt horse for all his 16 years and he has no problems from it
(well i say 16 i would like to think he wasn't hunted as a foal)
I
india
Guest
From a previous post:
http://www.defra.gov.uk/rural/hunting/inquiry/mainsections/research/postmortem.htm.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/jun/11/hunting.ruralaffairs
Sorry, but I prefer to trust the conclusive evidence of post mortems carried out by independent vets.
Can I ask a couple of questions:
1) Then why, when foxes escape by going to ground are they dug out by the hunt?
and
2) What's the need for the hunt to cut of the bush and feet of a dead fox?
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