The stupid hunt ....

[Francis Burton]

had a look, maybe im just cold hearted,

Were you not sickened by the bullfighting? In the case of bullfighting, there is no possible argument for utility or necessity - except the livelihoods of those involved (though I am sure if abuse of bulls for sport and tradition were to cease they could find gainful employment elsewhere).

but to be honest if the country wants to ban hunting with hounds then surely it needs to ban fishing, battery chicken farms etc, whats the point of one with out the other? every day every animal suffers at the hands of humans, being it starvation, transportation or being reared in a tiny pen for meat, WHERE does the line actually get drawn???

That's a very good question. My view is that human-created animal suffering should be minimized as much as possible. Domestic animals kept for food should be able to enjoy more comfortable lives than their wild counterparts. So that means we should keep them well fed (but not overfed), phase out factory farms, not transport live animals long distances, ban tiny pens, etc. Of course there would be a cost to us - it would mean more expensive meat - but then we are spending a smaller proportion of our incomes on food these days anyway, so there is scope for adjusting the balance.

You ask what's the point of one without the other. One could argue that we need to farm animals to satisfy our demand for meat, and in theory that could be done with much less suffering than exists today. On the other hand, we don't actually need to hunt with hounds if foxes can be controlled by shooting (which is more effective at reducing numbers - that's assuming that some foxes have to be killed). However, it's clear that neither hunting with hounds nor shooting is perfect with respect to welfare and suffering - the question is: which is more humane? I believe shooting has the edge, but I could be wrong.

Again, there is a very real cost associated with the banning of hunting with hounds, in terms of livelihoods and "bringing in cash" as well as social benefits. Clearly it isn't "worth it" for those involved. Do those who aren't involved also have a right to have a say? If they/we do, then it's vital to get the facts straight.

Fishing is trickier, for me anyway. I believe "lower animals" suffer "less" (e.g. compared to mammals), but are capable of suffering nonetheless. So it should be minimized too, but honestly I have no idea if there are ways to make fish catching and killing more humane - probably not. I do find the discarding of overcatch an outrageous waste though.

 

[jaydevon]

Francies,

to be honest it didnt sicken me, it happens, ok so that sounds very wrong, but to be honest i find the hours horses spend in transportation or at the way they suffer neglect far more disturbing the bull suffers may be an hour a 2, horse will suffer days/weeks before death, a bit like the fox being ripped to shreds, i fully agree its not nice but its over in minutes.

if i was making choices, id look at animals of all types that suffered the longest duration of suffering,then do something about it. i guess it is also this that allows me not to feel guilty about fox hunting.

 

[Mary Poppins]

I just keep reading the same posts over and over again with the same links/questions and points. I keep looking as I am neither for nor against and I am interested in the points of view when they differ but they are all the same.

What exactly is the point in repeating ourselves?? Is it imperative that someone/side wins this debate or is it going to be one of those that eventually the mods close as its repetative???

Personally I feel very strongly against fox hunting that if I have to repeat myself 1000 times just to get one person to consider what I have said then it is worth doing. To me, foxhunting is such an outdated barbaric practice that it is worth trying to influence other peoples opinions. In all animal welfare cases, the animals cannot speak up for themselves so we have to do it for them. I can't just say 'oh well, not everyone agrees' and turn to the next thread. The issue is too important for that.

 

[india]

Francies,

to be honest it didnt sicken me, it happens, ok so that sounds very wrong, but to be honest i find the hours horses spend in transportation or at the way they suffer neglect far more disturbing the bull suffers may be an hour a 2, horse will suffer days/weeks before death, a bit like the fox being ripped to shreds, i fully agree its not nice but its over in minutes.

if i was making choices, id look at animals of all types that suffered the longest duration of suffering,then do something about it. i guess it is also this that allows me not to feel guilty about fox hunting.

Any type of animal suffering sickens me, whether it be due to live transportation, foxhunting, bullfighting, badger baiting..the list goes on.

It's nothing to do with making choices, it's about compassion and the well being of ALL animals. In my opinion, any type needless suffering is disturbing!!!

 

[Mary Poppins]

had a look, maybe im just cold hearted, but to be honest if the country wants to ban hunting with hounds then surely it needs to ban fishing, battery chicken farms etc, whats the point of one with out the other? every day every animal suffers at the hands of humans, being it starvation, transportation or being reared in a tiny pen for meat, WHERE does the line actually get drawn???

The line gets drawn when the suffering of an animal is purely down to providing entertainment for humans. That is why fox hunting is seen in the same light as dog fighting, hare coarsing, **** fighting etc. They serve no other purpose other than to provide human entertainment.

I do agree that all types of farming, fishing, battery hens etc. could improve their practices but as a consumer I am able to influence this to a certain extent. I buy free range eggs, I buy all my meat from the butcher and know exactly how the animals were kept and killed. Animals do suffer at the hands of humans but through education and the improvement of goverment legislation this can and will be improved in the future.

 

[jaydevon]

Any type of animal suffering sickens me, whether it be due to live transportation, foxhunting, bullfighting, badger baiting..the list goes on.

It's nothing to do with making choices, it's about compassion and the well being of ALL animals. In my opinion, any type needless suffering is disturbing!!!

I See where your coming from, but to be honest, im not about to turn vegaterian (unless you count the husband i dont like vegetables) classic example, i have a rat trap in my tack room, a rat got caught in it, it was making such a noise, got friend to put it out of its misery, i didnt have a problem with killing it, but didnt want it to suffer either, so this takes us back to the fox/deer, i could NOT stand and watch the fox/deer being ripped to bits or shot, not face on, but i ACCEPT its what happens,

im not trying to justifiy my liking of hunting, or the killing of the fox, but i guess i kind of accept that it happens. does that make sence?

 

[beki x-x]

Francies,

to be honest it didnt sicken me, it happens, ok so that sounds very wrong, but to be honest i find the hours horses spend in transportation or at the way they suffer neglect far more disturbing the bull suffers may be an hour a 2, horse will suffer days/weeks before death, a bit like the fox being ripped to shreds, i fully agree its not nice but its over in minutes.

if i was making choices, id look at animals of all types that suffered the longest duration of suffering,then do something about it. i guess it is also this that allows me not to feel guilty about fox hunting.

i know i wasnt even in this debate ,, but i hate the way people say fox hunting is instant. what about the fact that the are chased for ages terrified , then killed. if they were simply shot in a field then i wouldnt have a problem !!

 

[SmallHunter]

shot but not always a clean shot and left to die slowly of infection.

 

[chev]

IAs far as I was aware hunting threads such as this one werent allowed?? Anyone care to enlighten me??

They have been discouraged in the past as they tend to degenerate. But for as long as it remains civil, there's no reason to close them.

 

[jaydevon]

i know i wasnt even in this debate ,, but i hate the way people say fox hunting is instant. what about the fact that the are chased for ages terrified , then killed. if they were simply shot in a field then i wouldnt have a problem !!

i have never once said its intant, one bad shot and its not, i fully agree, as a member of the forum, you are very welcome into the discussion,.

 

[Cerys]

I used to be against hunting, shooting, was vegetarian etc. Now I shoot, fish, hunt, have a national diploma in gamekeeping, have a lovely cocker spaniel gun dog and can quite happily kill a pricked bird that he brings to me. I don't know where the change came but it just did and unlike some antis I don't feel the need to try to change peoples opinions, its up to each one of us to make our own choices. However the main thing that does get my goat (other than the fox, sorry not funny!) is people deciding against things when thay have no experience of them. And people telling me that I am cruel because I hunt, shoot, fish while they tuck into their burger/ steak/ cheapo chicken. I don't think it will be such an issue on here as most people are country folk but I can't abide people who eat meat but cannot except where it comes from

 

[horseygal90]

I used to be against hunting, shooting, was vegetarian etc. Now I shoot, fish, hunt, have a national diploma in gamekeeping, have a lovely cocker spaniel gun dog and can quite happily kill a pricked bird that he brings to me. I don't know where the change came but it just did and unlike some antis I don't feel the need to try to change peoples opinions, its up to each one of us to make our own choices. However the main thing that does get my goat (other than the fox, sorry not funny!) is people deciding against things when thay have no experience of them. And people telling me that I am cruel because I hunt, shoot, fish while they tuck into their burger/ steak/ cheapo chicken. I don't think it will be such an issue on here as most people are country folk but I can't abide people who eat meat but cannot except where it comes from

Really? Well, you see, that annoys me a lot as well.

Why is my opinion, which is based on years of research and reading debates like this, watching programmes on it and listening to interviews on the radio by people involved of any less value because I chose not to kill things on my spare time?

I think I speak for everyone here that murdering (humans) is wrong. And that murderers need to be punished in someway. I have no experience of the criminal justice system and have not murdered anybody - Again, I'm sure, like most people on here. Should my opinion that murder is wrong be invalid then?

I'm sorry that I don't get enough pleasure out of killing animals without defences to have an opinion on it - Oh no, that's right; because if I did, then I'd support your opinion on it that it was ok.

 

[Cerys]

Because for me things aren't black and white, perhaps for you they are which is fair enough but I would much rather see both sides of the picture before I make my mind up on something.

 

[xloopylozzax]

i dont know if this has been said but

personally i agree completely with fox hunting, it isnt in the same league as bull-fighting so i dont see the comparison.

realistically the number of foxes killed out right from been hunted with dogs is very low- it just keeps tabs on the numbers, it doesnt (or didnt) eradicate them completely that wasnt the purpose.

the foxes caught are ill, weak or old, and of no benefit to the fox population, infact it helped stop the spread of disease to healthy animals (diseased animals caught quickly less chance to spread it) and lessened the suffering of ill animals instead of been left to starve or rot in a ditch for a few days/weeks.

everyones talking about a quick death if it is shot errr nope thats not how it is unfortunately, many are body shots (left to bleed to death, or get infection and die from blood poisening) or just clipped causing the same thing, not to mention limbs been blown off aswell.
there is no way to tell a healthy fox from a unhealthy one at the range you can shoot them from- far more "useful" foxes are killed instead of ill ones, which defeats the point.
more foxes are shot then were killed by hounds, so it is damaging the population more severely.

i know from people round my area that more people are taking the law into their own hands and shooting foxes, licence or not and aiming to get as many as possible, not been selective or conservative.

one point i did read- of course some foxes kill for the hell of it- 1 chicken sat outside on a nest in the grass, killed and partially eaten before it decided to ravage the whole hut full of chickens (upwards of 40 birds)
it was carnage, blood, feathers and bodys everywhere and not one eaten.
one pair survived because the cockeral fought the fox away from this one hen, they were both in a right state and we initially thought they were dead because of the blood and cuts they had, but luckily they lived.

 

[horseygal90]

But I can see both sides of the picture - You don't need to grab a horse and kill a fox to get information on it and therefore form an opinion on it.

 

[Cerys]

Loopylozza- I agree with everything you have said, very informative and concise!

 

[Cerys]

I know what you are saying Horseygal and I really don't want to argue because like I said I do try to respect everyones right to their own opinion. I just think that what gets said isn't always really what goes on, I used to be dead against all field sports until I tried it and met the people and heard their side of the story and saw the good that it did the countryside (particulary shooting rather than hunting from the countryside management side of things).

 

[Flash Harry]

i will say yet again- this thread is going round and coming back again......i agree it has been great to view everyones points of view, although it has, sometimes been repeated,how much longer can it keep going

 

[Cerys]

I think the plan is to keep going until we are all converted one way or the other!

 

[Izod1360]

It will probably be closed soon because EVERY year this same thread is started and then people go at each others throats until its closed. To be honest, its gets annoying that every single year a debate starts up about hunting.

My old RS goes hunting twice a week,year round. I never did it but it was a huge thing for all the people. I think its different in the US anyways. Like I have no idea if it is illegal or not. It never seemed that anyone was against it though.