The stupid hunt ....

[Kc..]

I have to agree with you Kc, my OH is a farmer so I can't say too much but I have a much bigger problem with factory farming than any other "animal welfare" issue, a animal that lives is these conditions that has never seen the sky has had its whole life wasted. I would much rather eat a pheasant that has been shot in the wild, I mean ok it may have suffered for a very short time but whos to say that the chicken bought from a super market had a quick humane death because I can assure you that many don't, at least the pheasant has had a relatively natural life.

Yep i agree 100%!

 

[india]

It is the landowner's decision, or rather it was pre-ban, if he wanted the fox dug and dispatched with humane killer then that was his prerogative.

Doesn't that contradict your earlier statement regarding the fox having the opportunity to escape?

hunting in its traditional form would only catch the weaker foxes, there was no wounding - just 2 outcomes - kill or escape.

Pre-ban when foxes were being killed, it was traditional that a trophy would be taken after a successful conclusion. This could be kept by the staff or awarded to a follower. It might seem gruesome, but it showed a respect for the quarry.

It appears some pro-hunters would rather have people believe this "tradition" ceased decades ago (I wonder why), but thank you for confirming this gruesome tradition was practised right up untill the ban.

Hounds were rewarded by being allowed to break up the remains of the carcass, which is where some of the anti hunt 'evidence' comes, despite this being a post-mortem activity.

The post mortems where carried out by independent vets, not "anti's". The evidence was conclusive that the foxes caught above ground died from severe trauma caused by dog bites and all the foxes examined had suffered agonising injuries before death!!!!!

 

[Haphazard]

Just as an added thought with all this discussion re suffering. How many on here would condone euthansia?

 

[india]

Cubbing was traditionally about dispersing the fox population, hounds don't need to be taught to hunt, but they do need to learn what NOT to hunt. Thus early hunting is a job of work and not a jolly gallop. In my limited experience very few foxes were killed, it most certainly isn't the slaughter portrayed by anti-hunt groups. Cubbing is a word we try to avoid now, as the young foxes are fully independent by the time autumn hunting starts, it was never about slaughtering as many baby foxes as we could find.

But that hasn't really answered my question. What I would like to know is how many healthy, young foxes are killed in the cub hunting season and where this fits in with the theory that only the old, weak or diseased foxes are ever caught.

 

[Cerys]

India, I will try to answer some of your questions, this is just my opinion so may be wrong but the way I see it is...

Ideally the hunt would like to chase a fox and then either catch it or, if it goes to ground leave it. However the land owners let the hunt go across their land ideally to control foxes, some landowners are happy for the fox to be left, some would rather it was destroyed.

Can I just ask, why does it matter what happens to the fox after it is dead?

 

[india]

India, I will try to answer some of your questions, this is just my opinion so may be wrong but the way I see it is...

Ideally the hunt would like to chase a fox and then either catch it or, if it goes to ground leave it. However the land owners let the hunt go across their land ideally to control foxes, some landowners are happy for the fox to be left, some would rather it was destroyed.

Can I just ask, why does it matter what happens to the fox after it is dead?

So it's a complete myth about the 'escape or get killed' scenario and 'only the old, weak and diseased foxes get caught'.

The thought of anyone taking pleasure in receiving a reward from being party to an animals suffering and ultimate death is what I find disturbing. The fact that the reward is in the form of the dead animals body parts, I find very gruesome.

 

[Haphazard]

So it's a complete myth about the 'escape or get killed' scenario and 'only the old, weak and diseased foxes get caught'.

.

but Cerys did say it was only her opinion, so do we take it that "the complete myth" is only your opinion?

 

[kirby]

changing for the better? your having a laugh!banks going bust, pensions being eroded, stock market crash, polution, unemployment going up, recession on our doorstep etc etc etc.

Kirby says "it is up to people to make the right choice" but who's right choice is it they should take? There own to be free to do what they want within the boundaries of the law or someone elses choice because they don't like something and wish to impose their will?

I have no problem with people disagreeing with what I or others do but I do have a problem when people wish to ram their beliefs down the throats of those doing things they don't agree with. We supposedly live in a free society so leave each to their own.

The world is changing for the better for ''animal welfare''.

It is up to people to make their choice, but isnt the right choice the obvious one? and all iam stating is i hope people will make that right choice in the future to choose the products which are highest in animal welfare,

Why have i rammed my opinion down others throats? when we are all writing down our opinions?

 

[Haphazard]

Why have i rammed my opinion down others throats? when we are all writing down our opinions?

sorry Kirby, this was a general comment and not aimed at you

 

[Yann]

and thats probably how a lot of wars start, promotes terrorism and crime. I am sure the many people killed through acts of terrorsim ( or having the right to say so and do something about it) would take a different view Yann

I think that's a rather astonishing statement.

 

[kirby]

Actually I am pro population management of elephants, the same as I am in favour of managing UK ecosystems. Schemes are currently running, which allow the triple benefit of income from big game shooting trips, control of the elephant population, which is raging out of control and also gives the local villages meat that will feed them for weeks. I think this is under the Campfire scheme, which is a brilliant idea.

Funnily enough, I don't sit at this computer waiting for posts to be added, I have a life, as such I might not respond immediately...jeez!

actually and funnily enough come across to me as you being quite saracastic

so iam not going to take your post into account

 

[india]

but Cerys did say it was only her opinion, so do we take it that "the complete myth" is only your opinion?

The complete myth theory didn't stem from just Cery's response, but it did help strengthen my beliefs.

 

[jaydevon]

Just as an added thought with all this discussion re suffering. How many on here would condone euthansia?

me!

 

[kirby]

I have to agree with that, i have been reading some of the posts on this thread and there seems to be no room for discussion with some people.

I have been hunting and i will go hunting again, that is my choice. However i would imagine i would be absolutely gutted if i saw a fox getting ripped to shreds in front of me. The whole thing about elephants, they do take meat etc from them so that's the same as us killing cows surely?

It seems that to some people an elephant is more worthy of life than say a cow... so how can you make that decision?

I guess it's just my way of thinking but i have no problem with killing an animal for food as in my mind that's kind of what happens anyway.

The whole battery hen thing i ***-like quite a bit, they have to live in that for there whole lives, which is why i can't compare that to a hunt chasing a fox... a lifetime compared with a few minutes. It's just not the same to me, but i guess that's just my opinion and i don't expect everyone to agree with it.

I bought up the elephant scenario as to me its the same as people hunting foxes, as in Africa they see the elephants as a pest, as do people who hunt foxes here.

All animals are at the same level for me, i would never hurt one, so that is why i choose not to eat them as i could not kill one and i do not agree with the managment of animals bred for meat, but for people who choose to eat meat they also have the choice of where from and which meat.

[my opinion]

 

[Haphazard]

The complete myth theory didn't stem from just Cery's response, but it did help strengthen my beliefs.

people tend to believe what suits their arguement

 

[country_bumpkin]

Sorry, that is sort of what I meant, I didn't mean jolly good gallop but when I have been unsure of a horse or likewise when I first started hunting I was told to come cubbing first.

No worries, it is a tricky one to explain.

 

[india]

people tend to believe what suits their arguement

Not everyone, some prefer to weigh up the evidence of a discussion and come to a rational decission. Tunnel vision and petty arguments are an hinderence in any debate.

 

[Cerys]

I was just trying to illustrate that it isn't the hunt that are deperate to kill every fox by whatever means necessary. If the land owner wants the fox to be destroyed and the hunt don't do it they will still do it.

Other than sentimentality I don't really see why some one would have a problem with what happens to a fox (or any other animal for that matter) after it has died.

 

[country_bumpkin]

Doesn't that contradict your earlier statement regarding the fox having the opportunity to escape?

My earlier statement referred to the possibility of wounding - whether the fox was dug and shot at close range with humane killer or killed by the hounds. The outcome was the same - kill or clean escape.

It appears some pro-hunters would rather have people believe this "tradition" ceased decades ago (I wonder why), but thank you for confirming this gruesome tradition was practised right up untill the ban.

I really don't see what the problem is with this. The fox was dead, it had no need for the brush or mask..

The post mortems where carried out by independent vets, not "anti's". The evidence was conclusive that the foxes caught above ground died from severe trauma caused by dog bites and all the foxes examined had suffered agonising injuries before death!!!!!

These post-mortems performed by both sides, represented only a fraction of the foxes killed pre-ban and can hardly be called representative. The pictures I referred to are the emotive ones on the anti-hunting websites, not the scientific evidence.

 

[kirby]

i think what we[people who dont approve of hunting] are trying to get to the bottom of is why people who go hunting do it?

There have been reasons why but those reasons still im my mind dont comprehend an animal being killed for being himself, a fox.

One of Great Britains wild animals which are as bright as a robins chest and part of the wolf family!