'Traditional methods' v Natural Horsemanship

[Bodshi]

A while ago we asked my RI to help us teach Jack to load. She's BHS qualified but has also worked with other trainers, including Mark Rashid. Her approach was to lunge Jack first, giving him loads to do and being really strict so that by the end he was really focused on her. Then she moved to the ramp and asked him in. When he wouldn't go in she worked him at the end of the lunge line, then invited him in, he refused, she worked him again etc etc until he was practically begging to get in.

Last weekend a fellow livery asked a Natural Horsemanship trainer to come and help her load her 2 year old. He did almost exactly the same thing as my RI, the difference was that he used a long rope and a rope halter instead of a lunge line and a headcollar. He also spent more time trying to physically persuade the youngster in to the box rather than working him from the ramp. Also,my RI also wore hard hat and gloves, the NH trainer had bare head and bare hands (although he did have cowboy boots on which were quite impressive!)

So what's all that about then? Why does using a rope halter and not wearing a hard hat make it 'NH'? Or was my RI using NH and I wasn't actually witnessing what I thought was a 'traditional' approach?

 

[Jessey]

Personally I believe NH is just a re-invention of traditional horsemanship (not necessarily BHS specifically) I've worked with a few old cowboys and old English horsemen & women and they very often use what we would now term NH methods, but to them its just horsemanship. I think the mainstream diverted from horsemanship to riders and breakers at some point probably because it became a leisure industry rather than a part of everyone's everyday life.

I am personally not good at conforming, I would never follow one method exclusively, I like to dip into various pots and take what makes sense to me, I go with the logical option, perhaps I can start a new craze of logical horsemanship and earn a bucket load off of it

 

[Wally]

For me NH has become nothing more than a money making scheme for certain practitioners, flogging harsh methods to beginners and novices who don;t know any better.

Following anything blindly is never a good idea

 

[chev]

My first ever instructor told me that to get a horse to listen to you then you must first listen to them.

That was about 35 years ago when everything was BHS and NH hadnt been heard of.

I don't particularly follow any method. Current RI is constantly getting me to work with the horse so that we go together as a team and has always been really thoughtful about how we do that but if a horse threatens her isn't adverse to giving a slap either.

The best teacher you can have is your horse.

 

[tikkitti]

I just use a sensible approach, I'm open to BHS and NH methods and if neither get the results I need I have are rethink and use my own common sense approach. I know a very respected NH trainer and some fantastic BHS instructors, I think some horses respond better to certain approaches and there's a place for all methods.x

 

[horseandgoatmom]

Personally I believe NH is just a re-invention of traditional horsemanship (not necessarily BHS specifically) I've worked with a few old cowboys and old English horsemen & women and they very often use what we would now term NH methods, but to them its just horsemanship. I think the mainstream diverted from horsemanship to riders and breakers at some point probably because it became a leisure industry rather than a part of everyone's everyday life.

I am personally not good at conforming, I would never follow one method exclusively, I like to dip into various pots and take what makes sense to me, I go with the logical option, perhaps I can start a new craze of logical horsemanship and earn a bucket load off of it

Following anything blindly is never a good idea

I agree totally.
You have to go with what works for your horse.
No one has the magic bullet or tack that works for everyone.

I really hate it when its put to people you have to use my methods only and my tack etc only as well.

You have to use what each has to offer that works for you and your horse.

 

[squidsin]

I think some NH is utter nonsense, but that may just be because the NH people I see practising it are getting it wrong. One lady I know waits to be 'invited' to mount her horse (ie, if the horse steps away from the mounting block, she sees that as the horse not wanting her to ride and waits to be asked, or doesn't ride) and does the same waiting to be 'invited' to pass obstacles. People on that yard make excuses not to hack out with her as she never actually gets far and it can take 45 mins to get past a puddle! She also chases her horse round the field, god knows what that is about.

On the other hand, I am pro trying to keep a horse as naturally as possible, but while also being aware that all horses are domesticated to the extent now that left to their own devices, they'd die pretty quickly. They are totally dependent on us, and there's nothing 'natural' about that.

Also I agree with Wally - a lot of it is just an excuse to print money - and tikkitti - common sense is generally the answer! I would say both trainers in the original post took a common sense approach to getting that horse to load, Bodhsi (although the NH one should have worn a hat to be truly exhibiting common sense! Accidents can happen whatever methods you use, horses are fairly clumsy beasts!)

 

[Skib]

For me NH has become nothing more than a money making scheme, flogging harsh methods to beginners and novices who don't know any better.

In my case the opposite - NH was less harsh and physically demanding than BHS - but more manipulative. At a conventional riding lesson I was rubbish. With NH, I was far cleverer than the horse. And if I didnt get what I wanted, I could go home and consult the books for another possible answer. No horse could do that!

As an adult I came to riding having watched countless natural History programmes on TV. NH is also Naturual History another NH which fitted me. We have had posts on here rejecting MR without saying whether they mean Monty Roberts or Mark Rashid. I needed these guys and I paid them -

All teachers sell their time - and customers shop around. Using terminology like NH to condemn teachers people like me may find useful while exempting the friends and instructors you yourself find invaluable (see Wally's post on working slowness from the ground) is meaningless. Because how do you classify anything? It is possible for classical teachers to teach harshly from the ground. But that doesnt mean everyone does it. I was looking at Charles Harris the other day as the book was lying about and I chanced on his discussion of the seat - and saddles and effect of dressage saddles on the horse and rider. Not NH but not BHS either - so what?

In my opinion the biggest critcism of John Lyons and Mark Rashid who have greatly helped and educated me, is the anthro-promorphism. The setting up of imaginary conversations between a horse and rider which I absoutely love - Lyons insisting on good manners when visiting a horse, as one would behave politely with a bank manager from whom one wanted a loan. The best army trainers in World War One insisted that the men talked to their horses and took (I think) 45 minutes to groom. I am sure that the horses have a mind and a brain -
When I read Hugo Rifkin comparing a horse to a stick insect that doesnt even know if has a rider on its back - I do wonder.

 

[Wally]

Any method that upholds the use of a gumline and strapping the horse's leg up to get a bridle on and smashing a 4 inch carabina into a horses jaw has me chucking baby out with the bathwater, as I am glad I did, as there were many, MANY other abusive and ignorant NH practices I have seen and I will not associate myself with anything the Parellis do now.

When we had a bridle phobic horse we cured him in 10 minutes flat by making him a bridle that did not involve his ears. Simplz.

 

[KP nut]

I don't think OP meant parelli?

 

[newforest]

For me my view is it's takes various ingredients to make a cake. So it will take various methods to create a partnership.
I don't get hung up on the why, where, who or how. The equipment is totally irrelevant.
Cowboy boots doesn't make me a cowboy does it!

I work with what's in front of me, in a way that's understood by that horse. I have a firm grip on my emotional reins. By that I mean how I deal with the horse when things go wrong means more to my horse than any certificates or the methods I choose. Losing patience isn't in anyone's methods. It has no place in mine.

 

[KP nut]

I rode as a child but never handled horses. I just turned up to ride. I never gave any thought to what the horse might think or feel beyond a sentimental 'he likes cuddles' kind of way. The key approach I picked up from many lessons over many years at many schools was an adversarial one: show him whose boss, don't let him take the mick, get after him etc. Unwanted horse behaviour was seen as naughty and was suppressed via punishment - a slap, a growl, a smack or a yank in the mouth.
Then I read Monty Roberts followed shortly by Mark Rashid. And I became interested in the why of horse behaviour. Traditional versus NH became the way in which I saw the differences as this seemed to be how these differences were described but I no longer believe those terms mean anything at all. The adversarial approach I described above is not 'traditional' at all! And NH is so linked now to PNH that it's become a gimmicky toxic concept for many. Rashid is nh (as I see it) but his horses are bitted and shod and it has bugger all to do with equipment. Or cowboy hats! As he is constantly having to say to all the people who keep telling him why he should go barefoot or whatever. If I had to classify how I try to approach horsemanship it would be horse centred versus human centred. I try to see things from the horse's point of view not just my own. I try to build a partnership not impose my will through coercion or force. I try to fix the source of a problem rather than just suppress a behaviour. And like NF I am not wedded to any model but try to just play around with ideas and see what works with who.

 

[Jane&Ziggy]

I am eclectic in the methods I use. I am sure though that NH does not equal Parelli - whatever you think about them there are many trainers who would be described as NH who are ethical.

 

[Cortrasna]

Just a small note here - please don't assume ALL older and more traditional horsemen or horse women insist on 'showing a horse who is boss'. give it a good wollop' etc. etc is the mantra of all the traditionalists.

I was lucky enough to be brought up surrounded by extremely capable and knowledgeable horsemen - many of them would quite happily have spent a whole day patiently teaching one small element of training to a young horse, but some of them would have rather kicked the bejaysus out of it and have it doing the required task within the hour.

Only difference now from then, nobody paid silly money for books, videoes, demonstrations from either of the aforementioned trainers. You just stood quietly , hoping nobody would send you away to play with the ponies, and listened and learned, or not as the case may be.

As with most things in the world, there is nothing new - usually it looks new, but when you dig deeper it rarely is new, just the same old stuff churned out for the masses to either soak up or reject, and of course pay for, handsomely . I thank heaven on a regular basis that I took my knowledge from those closest to me, and it is the kinder more patient method of handling horses, but with a good bit of common sense and firmness when an uppity young horse throws it's dollies out of the pram.

 

[KP nut]

Just a small note here - please don't assume ALL older and more traditional horsemen or horse women insist on 'showing a horse who is boss'. give it a good wollop' etc. etc is the mantra of all the traditionalists.

Totally agree. I have no idea where 'traditional' vs 'NH' originally came from and they are meaningless terms as far as I am concerned.

Xenophon wrote: "Never deal with him when you are in a fit of passion. Anger, impatience, fear...virtually any human emotion undermines effective communication with the horse." So not exactly new!!

But there ARE difference in approach and as I don't have any wise experienced horse folk around me I am grateful for the books and the demos.

 

[tikkitti]

If I'm totally honest one person who I really loved listening to and learning from was a traditional knowledgeable wise elderly horseman local to us, sadly he recently passed but will be missed, his daughter was a Ai but he had no formal qualifications in equines but was a walking horse encyclopedia and had a wealth of experience and knowledge, and in my opinion was the kind of horseman your lucky to meet.x

 

[Mary Poppins]

I don't know what 'traditional' methods are? Does 'traditional' supposed to equate to 'BHS'? Why does there seem to be such a 'BHS' bashing by people who like to label themselves 'Natural'?

They are all just words to me and everything has a different interpretation of what they all mean. I don't place myself in any category, I mainly use common sense and follow my RI and vets advice.

 

[newforest]

In my opinion you cant do the this way or that way. I think it stems from one camp supposedly being right and the other wrong. I know my "nh" trainer was anti lunging, anti longreining, pretty much anti most things that wasn't being taught. That's where we hit problems because I wouldn't be told that after xx years long reining was damaging to the horse.
I am more down the centre cherry picking. It also depends on where you were taught what, if you were, or what you have read, if you have. Its also where you are in your understanding perhaps? A lot of books I read said "not to let the horse get away with things" it doesn't say beat it up, it means correct where needed. Its all interpretation isn't it.

Its based on your partnership and your confidence in dealing with what your horse sends your way. Knowing if you are riding an opportunist like mine helps The one that flicks an ear that the gate is open when you ride by and when you change reins locks onto it leaving you to discover if you can do a one rein stop from canter in a headcollar! Now had she not done that we wouldn't know. She is a "what happens if I do this" type. She certainly isn't boring

 

[joellie]

The one that flicks an ear that the gate is open when you ride by and when you change reins locks onto it leaving you to discover if you can do a one rein stop from canter in a headcollar! Now had she not done that we wouldn't know. She is a "what happens if I do this" type. She certainly isn't boring

Hehehe , just sounds like mine