Share your views, thinking, thoughts on this pony, wwyd

[Jessey]

If this is who I think it is then she does have a very unique position, contact with a lot of world experts and and an enormous support network. She isn’t just some backyard Joe blow and understands the physiology better than most.

i agree with @MrA that you can’t possibly know all you need to know from a couple of pictures and videos to say if the pony should live or die, vets would never need to come out if you could.

 

[MrA]

If anyone fancies a read this came up through a blue cross webinar I was watching and I think it's some interesting reading. One of the top 4 welfare issues identified in UK horses is delayed death, along with inappropriate housing, nutrition and unresolved stress or pain. https://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/what-we-do/research/horses-in-our-hands

Edited to add, relevant to the topic being discussed but not accusing anyone of doing such

 

[MrA]

The vet should report them, surely they have animal welfare laws there.

This actually came up at my work recently, the vets response was you would have a hard time getting anyone reported for an animal welfare offence if they have actively sought out veterinary treatment for the animal. Unless of course the injury to the animal was purposely inflicted but even then it would have to be proved which would be very difficult.

 

[carthorse]

This actually came up at my work recently, the vets response was you would have a hard time getting anyone reported for an animal welfare offence if they have actively sought out veterinary treatment for the animal. Unless of course the injury to the animal was purposely inflicted but even then it would have to be proved which would be very difficult.

Even when vet advice is being ignored, and that advice has been given by two separate vets? No wonder animal welfare is such a mess.

 

[MrA]

Even when vet advice is being ignored, and that advice has been given by two separate vets? No wonder animal welfare is such a mess.

I'd imagine yes, as it sounds like they want diagnostics done, which potentially isn't an unreasonable request before euthanasia is considered depending on the animals QOL. By law animals are purely regarded as property, hence why vets can't really do anything to them without permission for fear of legal action.

 

[newforest]

It doesn't really matter who you are in fairness if you are listening to all that support that says you can do this you can treat this.
Someone has offered to make this pony a splint to straighten the leg without actually seeing them, they are in the USA. They will be sending that to a trimmer who will be seeing the pony.
That doesn't actually fix them as this isn't a recent development. That pony has adapted to live like that. It's been living in pain for months. It's going to continue to go through more pain when the leg gets altered.
I suffer with plantar, not the same I know but it's pain none the less. It was made worse when the physio made an insert to use all the time, it forced my foot into a position it hadn't been in. Certain footwear I can't wear verses I wreck the rest of it. My point is you can't make hooves correct and universal.

If one of us owned that pony wouldn't we saying I think that needs to be put down? Or would be saying nothing?

 

[newforest]

Usually we learn things and study things after death, we can give permission for ourselves to be studied in life and after death. We can give our animals to science after death.
This particular pony is being used to study and learn from before death.

If anyone fancies a read this came up through a blue cross webinar I was watching and I think it's some interesting reading. One of the top 4 welfare issues identified in UK horses is delayed death, along with inappropriate housing, nutrition and unresolved stress or pain. https://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/what-we-do/research/horses-in-our-hands

Edited to add, relevant to the topic being discussed but not accusing anyone of doing such

I was about to read that until it said download.

This particular pony isn't being put down because they are now a living case study. They are being used to learn from while they are still suffering and will continue to suffer while people try to fix them.
I think the easy way out has been to change vets, though doing so twice and changing ownership suggests the welfare isn't the top priority in this case.
No you can't really say to someone on the internet that any animal should be put down, but if someone here posted those photos with "what should I do two vets say put down", wouldn't we say it's up to you but I think it's time.

 

[MrA]

But they are not asking for your opinion.

It's interesting to talk about this aspect of welfare in a more general way, I think everyone has a line that they wouldn't cross treatment wise but what you do have to consider is that line is in a different place for everyone. Including vets themselves. For any number of reasons not just animal welfare.

My own experience is that my opinion of an animals suffering is very different from the next person. I've helped treat so many animals that I personally would have put to sleep, and in those situations I did know pretty much all the details of the case, I think if I had the outlook that these owners were needlessly causing their animals to suffer I'd probably have had to leave the veterinary profession already. It's very tough and of course I do have my own opinions but they don't override the wishes of the owner. I just try to understand why we are where we are and deal with it best I can.

 

[Jessey]

Study of live animals isn’t uncommon, many big research centres and the like maintain herds for exactly that reason. They do things like knowingly inducing laminitis, or starving horses to further study it/the impacts of it. That doesn’t make it ok, but there are some things that can’t be studied in vitro or after death, so they do it. If I’m reading up on illness or ailment I look for study papers and it often describes such experimentation.

Several people asked me if I would be putting Jess down when she went lame, in my opinion although she was obviously in pain (she was lame/limping) she was still very bright and appeared happy and very willing to charge around her field so I decided to let her retire and live out her days in the field. There were times when she was worse and I considered it, but then she’d improve to some degree and I didn’t think it was a fair choice. She’s now been sound for probably a year, I can’t remember last time she was lame. I know those people who asked me would have put her down 5 years ago, they’ve done it with their own horses in similar situations. Each to their own.

 

[newforest]

I started the thread so we could chat. I do have strong views on this pony, you might have noticed. But, I also reserve the right to change my mind.

So what I know about this case is the pony has suffered with laminitis for years. They are 15.
They possibly have cushings and will be tested at a later date.
Emaciated condition score of 1 out 5
They have very bad teeth and lice.
When the right leg buckled over it was left. The pony has learnt to walk like that. Left hoof chronic laminitis. Vet one advised previous owner to pts on welfare grounds.

New owner took on as a living case study to learn from document and save, help, change the leg. They set up a page to raise the money needed, it's not going to be cheap and will need months of ongoing care. Vet two advised putting down on welfare grounds, so now there is a third vet.

Pony has been trimmed despite wanting xrays to show what's going on inside. Imo you don't really know if that's helped or hindered without the xrays that you insisted needed doing.

People looking at the video are seeing a different image than I am. Some people are seeing a pony that shows it's a fighter, resilience, amazing how they adapt. I see a prey animal that's struggling and doesn't actually have a choice.

New owner is in contact with someone who can straighten limbs. They haven't met the pony, they know what we know. They've put a package together and sent it to the trimmer who will I guess at some stage fit it.

I am in touch with the current owner, so I might be able to ask questions.

 

[newforest]

Study of live animals isn’t uncommon, many big research centres and the like maintain herds for exactly that reason. They do things like knowingly inducing laminitis, or starving horses to further study it/the impacts of it. That doesn’t make it ok, but there are some things that can’t be studied in vitro or after death, so they do it. If I’m reading up on illness or ailment I look for study papers and it often describes such experimentation.

Several people asked me if I would be putting Jess down when she went lame, in my opinion although she was obviously in pain (she was lame/limping) she was still very bright and appeared happy and very willing to charge around her field so I decided to let her retire and live out her days in the field. There were times when she was worse and I considered it, but then she’d improve to some degree and I didn’t think it was a fair choice. She’s now been sound for probably a year, I can’t remember last time she was lame. I know those people who asked me would have put her down 5 years ago, they’ve done it with their own horses in similar situations. Each to their own.

If an animal shows signs of improving though that's not the time to call it. If they are suffering and struggling and it's ongoing with no signs that's the time?
We would naturally think about it if they are in a lot of pain, then we see them improve.

I had a frank discussion with the vet when the cob was seriously ill. They had the view that she needed to be able to go back out into the field and live like horse. The idea of moving to a new yard crossed my mind, but she was happy where she was so I took the chance and put her back out there.

 

[newforest]

Update from the current owner gives more information.

The right leg has been getting worse over the last FIVE years, this isn't anything that has happened recently.
Worst case scenario after xray is they get pts.

Best case scenario they want a prosthetic cast to straighten the leg, followed by cutting of the tendons that will reattach. They will need more funding for this as the funds raised so far only cover the initial xrays, not the rest of it.

Now he's where I am sat.
If this pony was young, I would be in the give then a chance. If this was recent I would be saying the same I think.
But this happened five years ago. So I am in the what are people thinking camp.

 

[Jessey]

So their plan is to put to sleep if necessary after diagnostics (X-rays) confirm suspicions? I don’t think that’s terribly unreasonable as a first step.

Then if the X-rays show something different they may choose to address it if possible. Not a terrible 2nd step.

I get this pony has been in pain for years, but surely that’s on the old owner? So long as appropriate steps are being taken now that is a good thing.

 

[newforest]

I see where you are coming from that they are looking to address if possible and if they can't they will pts.

They've taken on something that was booked in to be pts on welfare grounds because they are suffering. The old owner was listening to the vet and had made the decision.
It's still a welfare issue isn't it as a second vet advised the same thing so they got a third one.

It's interesting to see different people's views on things and it's good to chat about it.
It really didn't sit well when I learnt that everything being done was an alive or dead case study. It is one of those if you don't like leave the page, I will be, I just want to know what happens to this poor little thing first.

 

[newforest]

Xrays being done tomorrow so I can update what they find.

What is sad and I wonder if it's just how society and the world is now, you can't have a different view.
For some reason anyone who isn't agreeing with what is happening with this pony is viewed as a hater, troll or keyboard warrior.
I see it as different people with different views.

I might change my view, but at the moment I see a pony that is tucked up in pain and has been living like that for years.
One of the five freedoms is freedom from pain. That is what was going to happen as they were booked in.

 

[MrA]

Might change your view if the X-rays show that something can be done or for another reason?

 

[newforest]

Might change your view if the X-rays show that something can be done or for another reason?

Possibly.

I think what isn't sitting well with me is the fact they were booked in to be put down on welfare grounds.
A second vet also advised that with the new owner.
It's being left for five years and they are 15. So at best it will take up to a year, maybe more to fully correct that.

 

[newforest]

This is day six. I don't know if human intervention at this stage is in the pony's best interest.

 

[newforest]

Xrays and bloods have been taken. Blood results are not back yet.

The xray for that leg and hoof show that the fetlock has been fractured. It's an old injury and likely happened around 2020. It wasn't treated.
There are bone chips and calcification, the coffin bone is in a really bad position.

The thinking at this time is to leave her as she is if she's happy and not straighten the leg.
People in Canada are still convinced they can sort this.
She isn't being put down as she's happy and not in pain.

 

[Jessey]

Surely she's lame with that though? difficult to judge without seeing the pony if she's happy.