What do we class as a gimmick?

[MrC]

As in title.

Do we class a brand of training such as Parelli or intellIgent horsemanship as a gimmick? Do we class a whole term such as natural horsemanship or barefoot/unshod as a gimmick? Is it just 'brands' that make the trainers who 'established' them as gimmicks? Or do we class gadgets and trends as gimmicks?

I see people training under various 'techniques' that seem to all make other people money, the best ones are when you read into the methods to find it's plain common sense dressed up in theory and theatrical appearance. Having attended quite a few different minded seminars and clinics, some with rider and training demonstrations and some with video, with a completely open mind I have to say I find most of these horsemanship techniques as gimmicks.

Now I'm not one for being set in stone. I did things the old way, shoes, feeding straights, fitting my own saddles, treating minor ailments with old style remedies etc for a long no tone, learning from my dad and other long time horsemen and women but now I prefer flexible approaches. I still hold to the old ways of training, backing and bringing on, and I have had great results, somethings I have tweaked to suit but now I prefer barefoot, feeding fibre and oil (and not just to my cereal intolerant horse ) and I use saddle fitters (if I have a problem fitting a horse, I do still prefer to fit my own) and I have went against my own belief and I'm trailing Kia on meds that I said in the past I would never do.

I just saw a question on another forum of one brand of horsemanship vs another and one persons answer was very thought provoking to me about the old style horsemanship when your horse was your life and his health determined the food on your table. Just got me to thinking why many people shun traditional methods and turn to these new ways that when you look right down to the bare bones of it are just the old ways made to look new?

Can you tell I'm running a temp and shivering g so can't sleep lol my thoughts for this evening

 

[Bodshi]

I've often pondered on this myself. I had the difference between traditional and natural horsemanship highlighted to me by watching my own trainer come to teach my OH's horse to load and then watching a natural horsemanship person teach a friend's youngster to load. The difference was clear - my trainer wore a hard hat and gloves and used a lunge line. The NH trainer wore cowboy boots and a cowboy hat and used a long line.

The technique they both used was the same - work the horse at the end of the line if it refused to go in the box until eventually the horse decided going in the box was easier than doing the work, and the only other difference was in the price (NH more expensive) and the fact that the NH trainer did the work where the box was parked, on a slightly gravelly surface, so that when the horse fell on its hocks it cut itself. I'm pretty sure my trainer would have done a H&S risk assessment first and moved the box onto grass.

I think NH, maybe because there are so many books and dvds etc about, is appealing to novice owners because it gives you a method to follow, which is apparently much easier and more accessible than going through the whole BHS process. Besides which it is promoted (rightly or wrongly) as being 'kind' to horses which is obviously very attractive.

Hope you are feeling better now!

 

[Jessey]

I think the thing that the likes of parelli do differently, to set them apart is they are awsome sales men, they built a brand and marketed it fantastically.

I know a few cowboys (in the flesh still working the range) who use similar techniques, they have to back multiple horses in perhaps 3 weeks in spring, before the calves start being born and those horses now need to earn their keep, they need that horse gentled enough that its not going to throw a fit when that cowboy is hours from any other person/help, alone, no mobile service because its a case of life and death up there, they are using very traditional methods. They are fabulous horsemen, but they aren't salesmen so they remain nobodies.

I do think there are differences between some of the traditional Bhs ways vs cowboy traditional vs natural horsemanship, not saying any 1 is better, I like to be able to look to different cultures etc for different answers.

 

[domane]

I think a couple of the current gimmicks are flash nosebands and matchy matchy - not every horse needs it's mouth strapped shut nor to wear a coloured ear bonnet and matching bandages! It was nice to see an article on the FB "Matchy Matchy" page (yes there is one!) recently highlighting the dangers of overheating tendons.

With horsemanship you have to be sensible and pick the bits you like and that are relevant to you, your personality - and your horses' personalities. I can remember confusing and distressing my 14yo thoroughbred, having been told that I must teach him to back-up the Parelli way. I spent ages shaking and waggling a 12ft line at him whilst a very heavy clip repeatedly donked him on his jaw....when in reality all I needed to do was stand at his shoulder, put my hand about a foot in front of his chest and say "back", for him to instantly comply..... is that so wrong?

The sad thing is that there are so many people in the horse world who AREN'T sensible....don't have a bit of "savvy". They are gullible, get drawn in and brainwashed ..... which is why so many bloomin' gimmicks exist!!! The worst one is copying your mates so as not to buck the trend or be challenged!

 

[MrC]

Great points!!

When you are reading that people are following this regime or that book or this method and I'm just like why are you limiting yourself and placing expectations on yourself and your horses progress? Why do you need to follow a specific marketed regime to get the horse you want? Why do everything the Monty Roberts/Buck Brannaman/Richard Maxwell/Guy Robertson etc etc way?

These people have all just taken plain old common sense from old time horseman and made a fortune peddling it but making certain techniques looks specific to them. Now parelli to me is the worst of the bunch after walking out of a demo, the only one I wanted to jump into the ring and beat the trainer stupid, I was uncomfortable with the join up technique as well and I don't rate it either but these seem to be specifics to certain brands.

Why limit yourself by adhering to a certain teachers/peddlers ways when if you are open minded then you can achieve a better result. I've yet to have any of my horses unhandleable by others also any I've backed both for me and others I've yet for people to come back to me and complain nor have I had any major issues. Perhaps I've just been lucky or maybe it's just I've chosen wisely without realising it. But I believe you are limiting both your horses and your potential by making Them an good example of a *insert brand here* horse.

Just my rambling lack of sleep thoughts lol

 

[Trewsers]

I am another that picks bits from lots of different ways of doing. I've never followed knowingly anything either Bhs or "natural". Just what I've learned is safe and I like to think kind. I've never backed a horse or anything as advanced as that but I do have two mannerly mares (well, they are with humans - just not all the time with each other!). Over the years we have sometimes had to muddle along and I have to say I've asked a lot of questions on here and done a lot of reading up. I don't think I could ever follow a strict route - like one of the "packages" offered up by various NH trainers. Mainly because there would most likely be things I didn't agree with and things I don't want or need to change.
I still find it interesting reading about other folks ways of training tho, there's a few threads on here I like to follow because I can learn a lot from them and it makes good reading.

 

[Lissie]

Oh gosh I'm a matchy matchy person sorry! But I don't do bandages!
I don't follow any set training/feeding/bitters methods I just go with what works with that horse.

 

[OwnedbyChanter]

I have never picked up or read a book by anyone you have mentioned.

I have never had a trainer teaching me anything other than to improve my riding.

My parents aren't horsey. I never rode until I was 21 yet somehow through common sense I have two amazing ponies. That lead one on either side as i push a barrow of hay. Back up when asked. Stand back for their dinner and load. Not to mention a pleasure to ride.

I don't get the need to follow others. I try something if it doesn't work I try something else simple.

Ear bonnets I don't get but I do bandaged/boot more so in winter and it will always match his saddle cloth. But to me that's no different in me looking smart when I ride

 

[newforest]

I've been there, got the t-shirt and the string I had an nh trainer for four years, alongside pnh, however she was set in her training ways and we parted company after she failed to be more open minded.

The why.
At the time the youngster I had didn't get "traditional" no one local would touch us with a barge pole. People stopped riding with us, when we most needed company. We got told by the RC not to come back to lessons!
So I discovered this nh "method" by accident. My pony excelled at it because it just seemed to suit his temperament. To be honest all it really is, is a different way of doing the same thing.
I liken it to xc and show jumping. Both are a course of jumps, both are approached differently but the end goal is to go clear.
If it works for me and my horse, I don't care who thought of it first, if it came out of a book, a box or a trainers mouth.

To be honest if you chose to go to a well known dressage trainer or showjumper for lessons, you will be paying a significant amount in fees. That person is also a good sales person. They will have books, dvd's, offer courses and demos.
You will probably spend money on a specific saddle tailored to dressage or jumping. You will purchase the necessary to compete, if you do. That appears to be fine, however anyone doing nh with its equipment tends to get comments about it?

My RI is bhs these days, it's not right or wrong, it suits my horse. That's the most important in all this, the horse.

Obc ear bonnet for us helps her with flies. It's also white so it does show up on her dark head. Can't answer for anyone else, it's a need not a fashion item for us.

 

[domane]

Hey..... I'm not perfect

 

[Skib]

The word gimmick is loaded with a value judgement. Most things in life, I think you have to judge by other standards and be precise about why you think they dont seem to be valid.
Only this morning I told an expert rider from a very different riding culture overseas that my learning to ride went beyond what I had been taught in UK BHS schools - I had had one classical teacher and been greatly facilitated by watching clinics given by Mark Rashid. I mentioned a couple of the things he had taught me. And which explained why I did not push my heels down as I rode.
Those were things that a good teacher or good rider might have learned from a BHS school or traditional rider. The fact that they come to some people via a different route, or receive different emphasis, doesnt change their validity.
One of the things I learned from Larry on this forum, was that I had to use my intelligence and make my own choices. That not all ways of riding a horse were compatible with each other. Because I came to riding as a woman in her sixties, with a powerful mind and fairly ropy body, the choices I make are likely to be different from those who have been riding all their lives or made by younger students. In fact children taught to ride within a structured UK framework, may not be given choices at all.

I came to riding as a grown woman who had raised children and was well versed in Behaviourism. I think it is worth looking at that because Behaviourism itself is now dated - possibly superceded by other approaches to communication and conditioning.

And what is true in the human sphere is true in the equestrian world as well. The fact that something was done in 1880 by men doesnt mean it is necessarilly acceptable today or even suitable for women owners. The ways I learned to control and teach a horse and learn from what I was doing, will be overtaken by new ways of addressing a problem. But the fact that a truth is temporary doesnt mean it is a gimmick. Rashid is a trainer who is frank about altering his mind over the passing years. John Lyons is another. But as their students we dont necessarilly have to shift in what we do - Just because they do.

I am a bit puzzled by this thread. Why it is posted now? And whether it is intended as a criticism of someone here? For when I read that a person is following a particular book or training programme, my heart too does sink, because that isnt actually the way I set out doing something with the horses. But then I dont do a lot of things which lovely people do on here. Pointless to tell them.

But one thing one does learn over years on NR that once people are involved with a particular horse, if one approach doesnt work, they will try something else. People who are not open to suggestions and constructive input dont really report or ask questions on forums.

I rode Rashid style this morning feeling the horse move under me and the mare sensing me back, because 12 years after I first learned it, it suits me. May be it was a gimmick. Trainer has moved on perhaps. The horse I first tried it with has died. A passing fad or fashion cherished only by a small minority of riders.

But you know MrC, I had a really happy ride - twice this week - Teachers who bring happiness to their students bring a fragile and elusive gift. And the trainer have nothing lasting to show for it, because just as my horses have died, I shall die too and all they taught me will be lost.

O yes, the money side. I paid Rashid to go on a course. I buy nice make up. I watch Youtube videos of how to put it on. Buying happiness.

I just noticed you are ill - and I am sorry about that. If it has made you happy posting this and having people agree with you as they always do when there are attacks on American cowboy trainers . Then you got happiness too.

 

[Jessey]

I certainly was not attacking American cowboy trainers, just saying I think some are better salesmen than others and I didn't offer any opinion if I think their gimmick is good or bad, but I will now, do I think a carrot stick deserves the price tag it has? no, a lunge whip can do exactly the same job, do I think there is validity in using either in training? yes, it has its place be it nh style or classical.

In order to perhaps make people feel better perhaps I should 'attack' other areas, I think a lot of riders who brand themselves sell gimmicks, lets see, Katie price and John whitaker with all their branded gimmiky gear. How about the blueberry grooming products. And the barefoot 'movement'. And that of straightness training. I believe every single one is leaning on gimmicks to sell their ideas as better than the others and being something totally new and different, thats the commercial world of course, thats how people make a living, it doesn't make the philosophy at the core wrong, but it can often make people pick things up for the wrong reason.

Even matchy matchy isn't new, thats just the new name for selecting matching colours for your horse, I've been doing it for 30 years, the difference being I won't use something just because it matches, but if I need something and it matches all the better personally I don't normally bandage but I do use ear bonnets to stop flies, I'm on the look out for one in my colour, I'm not buying a whole matchy set just because thats the latest thing but lots of people do.

 

[MrC]

Interesting skib that you have gone for the word attack, considering that I haven't attacked anything just questioned the need to blindly follow a particular method and that includes BHS.

Now I was taught to ride by my dad, no bhs instructor in sight, I was taught to get in the plate and stay there. I refined this method over the years using various methods and on various horses (many not even mine as I worked on a full livery yard and rode clients horses) all teaching me something new and many of my instructors were BHS registered by many followed more classical lines.

So I find it very revealing in your long post that your parting shot was calculated to perhaps take this thread from what it was originally intentioned as a mind opening debate that I had enjoyed on another forum and turn it into an us VS them. As for American cowboys well the term can fit all descriptions the same as if you apply it to Australian Cowboys or British cowboys I'm sure there are plenty of them if we were to take it in the context you are certainly trying to suggest we are using.

If you want to use behaviourism and the ability to spot trends in people's behaviour the yours on this forum is certainly the constant need to try to start an argument with such parting shots as you have above. We all spot little things about each other's online persona.

Feel free to take this thread however you like but I find it revealing that all those who have posted other than yoursel have taken it in the context it was written, only you have taken it as an attack. Says more for your state of mind than mine.

And yes perusing forums both U.K. And foreign has certainly been keeping me entertained in the small hours spent medicating this bleeding cold

 

[newforest]

@Jessey what colour bonnet do you need, I love shopping I am on the hunt for black now because white in winter just turns a shade of grubby and urgh. (any dark colour will do the job)
Sorry to go OT, but the dam flies are still out!

 

[newforest]

I looked up Gimmick on the online dictionary. "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade"

To sell your product, your services, you will need to get public attention. But that's for any horse product new to the market, or the old favourites brought back.
The carrot stick is by far the most well known for nh, however the wand, less so. Both do the same job but both are marketed by different "nh schools" Are they over priced, good grief yes. Are they needed, at the time with what I did with it yes, no nope.
Trust me when I say there is the my way and their way in relation to different nh trainers, even different hoof trims!! Thats why my trainer got told to leave my yard.

Changing the angle of this thread a bit. Some people do not believe in having a horse dentist to do teeth, they see it as a gimmick. A horse dentist I believe is new? Vet has always done mine. Am I wrong? The dentist would have me feel I was.

As for barefoot, it's unshod. It's not new, ponies at the riding school were not shod. We are unshod and we have a bog standard farrier with a standard trim. (been there had the bf trimmers x2)

 

[Jessey]

I've found what I want @newforest, a royal blue one I just can't justify it while I have 3 perfectly good other ones, one's nearly on deaths door though so soon the bugs are bad here still, well they were last week but we had a really good freeze Friday night so I'm hoping thats stopped them.

Thats my point about the barefoot movement being a gimmick, its not new, its just being marketed now as being more than just unshod, and there is a whole heap of gadgets and things you can buy for your barefoot horse. as you know I'm pro no shoe's (not anti shoe either tho) so I'm not barefoot bashing, just think its a bit crazy commercialised.

 

[Lissie]

But just look how pretty he looks haha! This one's bespoke made by olvossa have saddle cloth to match

Edited to say there does seem big hype about going barefoot. My old boy is just shod just on the front now but the farrier thought he was still in work how he wears his back feet down so would defo need shoes. Charlie has really good feet I think he'd easily go without but I keep him shod because he wears studs on grass and I'm happy in keeping him like that. Each to their own I suppose. I wouldn't criticise someone for going barefoot and I wouldn't expect them to critics my decision to shoe.

 

[Kite_Rider]

Have to say I think the internet has helped a lot, for me when I was a child I rode at the local farm, I was never 'taught' to ride and I learned how to handle and care for by watching. listening and learning, there was no other option for me back then. There was no google, no youtube, no visiting instructors of any description and we managed just fine.
Now we are overwhelmed with different methods and if Im honest none of them are very different to what I learned as a child, just seems to me that marketing has taken over and as most horsey folk want what's best for them and their horses, most folk will try the latest gadget or gimmick in the hope it will improve some aspect of their relationship with their horse or their riding.
It's up to us as individuals to figure out if something is a gimmick or if it works and if it does great, personally I will use whatever 'method' works best for me and Belle but at the end of the day it usually comes down to common sense.

 

[newforest]

@Lissie how do find those blinkers, how much difference in concentration?
Being nosey
I like that blue. I might go for any dark colour for winter.

 

[newforest]

Thats my point about the barefoot movement being a gimmick, its not new, its just being marketed now as being more than just unshod, and there is a whole heap of gadgets and things you can buy for your barefoot horse. as you know I'm pro no shoe's (not anti shoe either tho) so I'm not barefoot bashing, just think its a bit crazy commercialised.

My farrier turns up with nippers and a rasp. Myself I have a rasp and hoof testers.
I did buy a gadget and I've used it once, lent it out once! Do I need it no, but some gadgets if it's technology I couldn't help it
But I have tried two bf trimmers. My insurance actually banned them.