What more can I do????

Mary Poppins

Mary Poppins

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Oct 10, 2004
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As you will all be aware, I have battled with Bens weight for the last 3 years and have made huge improvements. He has lost over 100kg and is so much fitter than before. Our main weight loss strategies are as follows:

No hard feed at all (summer or winter)
Grazing muzzle for all turnout between March and September. He is turned out for 18 hours per day and stays out overnight.
Small soaked haynet for his stable
Ridden every single day. We do a wide range of work including fortnightly lessons, we jump twice a week, hack round the fields, school etc. We go out for a trip somewhere every weekend - usually a show or clinic
He has had 2 full clips so far this year and has not been rugged.

However, it seems that my efforts are not good enough. My vet came today for his annual health check and told me that he is still too fat. He condition scored him as a 4 all over and said that his bum was full of fat and his neck was verging on cresty. He warned me of problems in his joints from carrying extra weight and if I want to avoid the common problems that heavy horses have in their legs in later years, I need to get the weight off him and keep it off.

I explained what I already do to keep his weight down, and he said that his advice was for me to 'freeze it off'. Keep him fully clipped and only turn out in a rainsheet overnight. He said that his was mainly to stop people telling me how cruel I am being and that a rainsheet wont add much warmth at all.

I spoke to the yard staff who feel that my vet is over reacting and that he isn't too fat at all, but in my heart I know that they are being kind and he is larger than what I would like him to be. As they say, the truth hurts.

So this afternoon I redid his clip (3rd full clip since September) and turned him out in a rainsheet. On the nights where it is not so cold (tonight will be about 3 degrees where he is) I will turn him out naked and I will have to keep reclipping him every 3 weeks or so throughout winter.

My only other option is to keep him stabled for longer, or to turn him out into a small 'fatty' paddock on his own. Neither option appeals to me because I want him to stay with his friends and be allowed to be a horse. I don't think that it is much of a life for him to stand in a stable for long periods, especially without food and I don't want him turned out alone either. The grazing on our yard is good and the fields are huge, that is why I keep him there. Or perhaps I should muzzle him in winter as well? The muzzle makes a huge difference but even then I couldn't get him lower than 580kg on the weight tape. My vet thinks I could 'easily' get him to 530kg.

So has anyone else got any advice? Am I seeking the impossible? Is my vet idealistic? Can you really have a shire x without a fat bum?
 
Hmmmm - how old is Ben MP? Needing three full clips since September seems a little OTT to me, that is only about 8 weeks isn't it? and I have a lot of experience with big cobby hairy horses like him. I also have allowed some tubby traditional types to shiver a little weight off in the winter, but I would never turn any horse with a full clip out for any amount of time, he obviously has never had to treat a clipped horse with horrendous rain scald then :eek:.....the ones I have done this with have had either an Irish or a blanket clip.

You sound like you are doing all you can IMO to get weight off him and maintain that weight loss. Would it be worth asking your vet to do some blood tests to rule out any metabolic issues that could be muddying the water with him?

Without seeing pictures it is hard to asses if your vet is over reacting - but I have to say it does sound as though he might be. :(
 
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Apple bums are part of the charm IMO - if you don't like an apple bum then go for different breeding - your vet that is not you MP! :)
 
How you write it, it all sounds very drastic and not partically nice for Ben, Ive had a shire X Andulsian and he lived along healthy life - with a nice big apple shire bum. Ive also worked professionally with Shires and Clydesdales and they were all fit with nice bums and did a days work. I would only be worried if Ben was huffing and puffing his way round clinics, to have a perfect shape in one persons eyes. I would be asking the vet how much experience he has with heavy horses, and ditto above run some bloods to rule out anything. Ive never seen one with a skinny bum either !
 
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Echo everything above. And I really do not feel it fair at all to turn out a fully clipped horse naked,they have no protection what so ever from the rain/weather over their important organs and as cortrasna says rain scald and the like.
I too would be having bloods done to see if ppid or the like is a possibility.
I am a fan of muzzles,I don't know what your grazing is like but muzzled are still been used here,grass is still growing and mild days,cold nights etc, we had horses muzzled up to December last year and back on in Feb.
I feel for you as weight management really is difficult,I've always had good doers but I feel your vet is been very drastic and not thinking of some of the problems that his recommendations could cause and sounds like he needs some experience with heavies. They are completely different to other breeds.
You did put a photo up a while back and Ben looked great and fit and had great muscle tone.
 
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Our heavies were fully clipped in winter, turned out at night with full neck heavy weight rugs on.
 
Can you post a recent pic of him?

I keep Moët pretty trim, I think she is shorter than Ben, but I'm guessing a fairly similar build. We have a feed company come out and weigh them on the scales and she is always around 540-550kg and scored perfectly on the condition score. I would expect Ben to weigh more than her though.

Can you organise for Spillers/Dengie to bring the scales to your yard? They have both been very brilliant with condition scoring and the weight, plus giving feed vouchers and samples :)

I personally think continuing as you are (fully clipped and a light-ish rug and lots of exercise) will be totally fine. I wouldn't want him to suddenly slim down when he has the whole of the winter to do it.
 
I have had some very different views from many different vets about my horses weight. The type they are, they will never be stick insects, and sadly that may inevitably mean problems later on in life but really I wish some vets would consider the breeding rather than just judge everything in comparison to a bloody tb.
Apple bums are part of their genetics I think lol!
 
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i get what people are saying, some breeds are heavy built but fat pockets are clearly distinguishable from bone and a gutter along the bum is fat. My highland had to be really put into boot camp Im afraid for weight loss and would still have been like a blue whale on your management. To get his weight down he was kept on a hardstand pen with access to a stable, 24/7. No grass. The dengie feedline helped me work out what percentage forage he should get over a 24 hour period. He had straw - good, clean barely straw. It was weighed meticulously and double netted and his ration, which was megre.. was spread out over the day. In addition he had a small feed with a handful of safe&sound chaff & forageplus powdered lami plus balancer in it. This was recommended not because he was actually laminitic but because the nutritional value of what he was getting was going to be so poor that he needed a balancer that was a step up from the usual one. This sounds mean maybe? Certainly I had comments about how I was hard hearted but that pony’s girth went from 196cm on the tape to 184cm - he became more forward going and supple too. One last word - unfortunately to shift the fat pockets built up along his crest i had to let his body weight drop slightly lower than ideal in order for the fat stores here to be used up. It worked, then I was able to let him pick up again. good luck.

eta - this was over about 3 months. Once it’s down it’s easier to keep it that way and much to his delight he was allowed out on a very bare grass paddock :)
 
Having met Ben in the flesh I have to say I would highly highly surprised at having him at 530 kg !:eek: I could barely imagine that for own boy and Ben is bigger than mine !!

Mine was clipped fully last year and wore nothing but a rainsheet and that was to appease other liveries - I wouldn't do it again as he was cold and miserable.

I'd be looking to have him for longer possibly and mix his haynet with oat or barley straw. I did this and it worked well for my horse. Besides I think if you kept Ben in longer he is bedded on straw isn't he ? I would think if he were in and his haynet was empty he'd pick at his bed as a lot do that !

Sorry but I do think your vet is over reacting slightly, I have some pictures of my horse with ribs showing AND he still has the apple shape bum ! So that is his shape !

Please don't feel to bad x
 
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530 kgs seems quite light for a 16hh Shire cross. I would be inclined to bring him in for longer if it was me rather than turn out fully clipped in winter. I would also worry about rain scald. I know it is boring for them to be in, but we do all project human emotions onto our horses and perhaps worry too much about whether they're 'happy.'
 
If it's any consolation Belle still has a slight apple bum and according to my vet could still lose a tiny bit of weight to be ideal, you can quite easily feel her ribs and until she grew her winter fluff you could see them too!
The only way I got weight off her was by really restricting her grass intake, soaking her hay for 12 hours and giving her barley straw too, I know you don't want to keep him separate from his friends but you may have to if you really need to get the weight off, agree with mystiquemalaika, the grass is still growing quite nicely here too so I'd definitely leave his muzzle on, I don't think pictures will help a great deal as you know, you need to feel with your hands and none of us on here can do that from a photo.
 
H agrees that the Shire in him should have the apple bum shape, but that this should be firm and that not squash when he presses it. If the bum was solid then he wouldn't have a problems but the fact that it's fat and not muscle is the problem.

If the weather is dry and warmish, I do not see a problem turning out naked when fully clipped. If it's pouring with rain or very cold, he will wear a rain sheet. I always thought that horses were more likely to get rainscald with thicker coats as bacteria thrives in the warm, wet environment of the coat. If a horse is clipped, there is no warm environment for the bacteria to gather?

I am pretty sure that there is nothing metabolic wrong with him, he has always struggled with his weight. He is 'just' a good doer.

Feeling abit better about it all now, and have decided that I need to up the intensity of his exercise and try and zap this fatty bum into a muscley bum. I will continue to fully clip him - probably every 3 to 4 weeks and will rug or not rug according to rain. I'm not prepared to move him from his field with his buddies, but will make sure that he keeps his grazing muzzle on until November time next year.

Not sure it's worth getting anyone from a feed company out, because he doesn't have any feed? All he has is grass in the field and a small soaked haynet - which he often doesn't eat because he sleeps in his stable!
 
Or just wait a few weeks, then there will be less grass and it will be colder, his weight will drop naturally. Then next spring I would put the grazing muzzle on earlier, bring him in for an extra couple of hours, and ride for slightly longer or slightly faster. but that is easy for me to say of course, that's what I would do for Ale.
 
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does it really matter if his bums a bit squidgey, he should be fairly fit being worked and out most weekends. Being fat and unfit is a completely different ball game.
 
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You have always done what is right for Ben regardless. I would change his daily hay net to a mix of most barley straw and hay. I do think he could be eating his bedding as well so I would rather muzzle him in the field for another month or two (the grass is still growing here at a rate of knots).

I keep mine on the thinner side (ginger is hard to get weight on with anything other than goof grass anyway) Ginger weighs in at 480 he is 16h and Chanter at 520 at 16h but he is TBXID so bigger alround than Ginger.

Good luck
 
You are doing everything right :) The reason they are more likely to get rain scald when clipped is that you have taken off the waterproof layer of their coat so any rain would get to the skin, I think your idea to rug according to rainfall is perfect.
To make you feel better hopefully, Jess is 15.1 and not a heavy breed (QH x) and when I had A&P come out with their weight bridge last March she was 602 kgs (she was 560 odd on the weight tape) :eek: and BSC of 3.5 and not at her biggest. I have shifted a lot of weight off her this year, I still only ride 3/4 times a week but each time we rode longer (doing distance getting ready for our big ride) but the real turning point was when we got different hay early in the spring, we got cocksfoot which is high fibre, low nutrition and low appeal, I found once the weight came off its been much easier to keep it off, for the first time ever I can feed her (virtually) what I want without worrying, through I still keep her on low sugar, high fiber options. She's out 24/7 on not great pasture, with adlib hay in winter and currently getting a small feed once a day. Jess is also confirmed PPDI though she is only 11 and had/has no typical symptoms of cushings.
The grass is def still growing here, perhaps muzzling that little bit longer in the autumn would help.
 
Well you seem to have it all worked out MP but please dont try to completely remove Ben's lovely apple bum. There is nothing more hideous than a heavy type with a bony rear end from under feeding in an attempt to make the horse look like a breed or type that it is not and never will be.;)

For what its worth, and only my opinion, I would never under any circumstances turn a fully clipped horse out without a rug in the winter, raining or not. I think that borders on neglect and cruelty, but each to their own.
 
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