what treats for clicker training and general advice :)

[annareeves0]

In amongst the Parelli stuff, I have decided to do some clicker training as they seem to be pretty compatable and I think now we are working on a 22ft line, it would be easier to be able to let Rosie know she is doing the right thing

I have ordered Alex Kurland's book and just been emailed to say its in the post and should be with me within the week so am looking forward to that. I know several of you have got on really well with it.

When I ordered the book I had a specific issue I wanted to use it for but it cant have been that much of an issue as I have forgotton what it is!

My first question will be what are the best treats to use for my very overweight horse? I want someting worthwhile working for but very low calorie and prefereably pretty small? Any ideas?

Will elt you know how we get on

 

[capalldubh]

I use a variety of things (and am always conscious of horse's waistline ).

Most usually now, I take a portion of whatever supplement he's getting (mostly pelleted ones) or a handful of highfibre cubes for my treats for a training session. Carrot cut up into very thin coins is another thing I use. For exceptionally good things (today he walked over a grid of white lines on the road which is something he's had problems with before) he gets a sugar free polo mint.

You can also get linseed lozenges on eBay, I think from Natural Horse Supplies? They are pressed linseed, so good for the horse but low sugar (not low calorie, though ).

Broccoli stem cut up small works too.

The difficulty is getting a balance between something the horse likes (so considers a reward) with something that you can feed a bit of. Alex Kurland in the book suggests at the start that you count out 20 treats - that limits your session and is helpful (otherwise you can get carried away with your and horse's enthusiasm ) so anything, really, that you are happy to feed 20 of!

Key tip (which is in Alex's book) - feed where you want the ideal horse to be - so regardless of where the horse is when you click, when you feed they should be well out of your space, and you can do this by, if necessary, extending your arm right into their space and walking in to them. They will happily back up to get the food

 

[Lili & Morgan]

I used thinly cut carrots. It is natural and healthy.

When you feed, make sure your horse has his head straight and away from you. Do not let him flex towards you.

If you are using CT with Parelli, make sure your horse is left-brain, and he does not want to play instead of a food-reward.

My mare who was LBE extreme, needed and prefered mental stimulations, games than the carrots. I started with her with a mild form of CT, and she was either becoming nippy and more dominant. And when she respected me, she could not be bothered by the carrot. She wanted to play.

CT is a powerful training technique and it has his place for training horses, but not ALL horses. I will use CT for LBI, but not for LBE ( like my mare), or RBE or RBI.

 

[capalldubh]

Unlike the rather arbitrary "personality" types, clicker training is basically operant conditioning - so putting into (training) practice the theory behind how every animal (from sea slugs up to humans) learn. It is not the case that some animals do not or cannot learn through positive reinforcement - every animal learns through seeking rewards and avoiding discomfort.

However, if there is a discomfort present that is bigger (we say more salient) than a potential reward, the animal may choose not to take an available reward. In clicker training, the game is to make sure the animal (whatever species ) is sufficiently calm to be able to work for a reward - and to discover what the reward is for which the animal wants to work.

If play really is a bigger reward than food (occasionally the case for a foal), you should be able to click the desired behaviour then offer the opportunity to play. If you get the desired behaviour faster next time, you will know that play was rewarding to the horse. If not, then try a different reward

 

[Lili & Morgan]

I do NOT deny CT as a great training method. I have just been watching dolphin trainers working with their dolphins.

So I have NO DOUBT it works.

However, you cannot argue that this training was develop with predators, dolphins, orcas, dogs etc ...

Horses are not predators.

From MY experience, my mare was little interested in it. I am sure that if you go on others forum such as EE, you are aware that people have problems with horses not interested in it.

I believe that one should experiment what is best for themsleves and their horse.
Plus I do not believe that you can learn CT from a book or DVD, like you cannot learn Parelli from their DVDs only .

Also "scientifically proven" method always makes me laught. Because *I* am a scientist I spent 12 yrs of my life in University doing research. So *I* know how experiments are made ... I know what "scientifically proven" means ...

 

[capalldubh]

I'm sorry, Lili, I understand you feel quite strongly about this, but it's actually something I teach and research

Operant conditioning is how animals learn. All animals, not just predators. Clicker training is a way of using operant conditioning in a training setting, and was used with dolphins, yes. However versions of operant conditoning had been used from way back when Skinner first wrote about it, with species as varied as elephants and rats - most of the original research was done with rats. It is very well understood and has been used for going on 100 years

We don't tend to say anything in science is "proven", but it is possible to say that a theory has gained a lot of support from observing the results of experiments, and then trying them again and again - operant learning using positive reinforcement isn't really something that is often questioned now In fact, a chap called Kandel got a Nobel prize some years ago for demonstrating it in a sea slug called Aplysia. So I would kind of expect it to work with my horse, who has a bit more brain

ETA, I would love to know what kind of treats they used with Aplysia

 

[annareeves0]

Thanks for that peeps.

I appreciate the science/theory behind it and am interested in that side of it also - not enough to start an arguement though!

I had always in the past been very reluctant to investigate clicker training or anything that involved food treats as Rosie is SO food orientated and my leadership skills were so poor, I knew in my heart she would turn into a mugger

Now my skills are better and we have introduced occasional treats into our Parelli games i have realised I can now deal with this. She is motivated for treats and will ask for one when she's done something she considers worthwhile (very rarely what I consider worthwhile!!!!) but does so very gently and if denied doesnt push the issue so I think we are ready

I like the 'trick' stuff - it amuses me and fine detail stuff is much easier if I can indicate what I want very precisely with a click. We have learnt to stand both front feet in a tyre this week

I like Parelli a lot but as I am thinking of moving away from riding (if i get the new job i applied for, am going to get a saddlechariot) That makes it hard to follow the program to the letter, but will continue to work through level 2 in conjunction with the clicker stuff and who knows where we will head next

 

[kturner]

PLEASE read "clicker disaster-Broke my own rule" it is on page 3 of NH. Adjust settings at bottom of screen if necessary.

I say this because this is what happened to me, and you are in a field with no protection! I have gone back to the stable many times to re-inforce things again.

 

[annareeves0]

I remember that post, when your horse got really aggressive Will be very careful. Rosie already accepts that two palms up means no more grub so will be sure to reinforce that and keep my carrot close at hand.

Thanks for the warning though

 

[martini55]

The thing about clicker training is it can be more about training you as a trainer rather than training your horse. Timing is everything and you really need to think about what you want and how you ask for it because if you get it wrong and re-enforce the wrong behaviour you can get into a bit of a muddle! It's also a great thing to teach a horse who is a bit muggy because it teaches them that mugging gets them nowhere and also teaches them some self-control.

I started doing it with my horse and to begin with she wasn't very interested so I tried a few different things and it all just seemed to 'click'. She loves her sessions now and it's all very positive

 

[Lili & Morgan]

ETA, I would love to know what kind of treats they used with Aplysia

So would I! Have you got a paper reference? In which journal do they publish? I would love to know how they set up their experiment. What is their positive and negative control etc ...

Martini is 100% right CT is great for training a trainer

 

[annareeves0]

The thing about clicker training is it can be more about training you as a trainer rather than training your horse.

Cool - its always been me that's the problem I have so much to learn and I messed up our relationship so badly that am now having to put hours of work into fixing things again - she either knows it all already or picks it up in a flash!

Thats another reason I liked Parelli - works on my skills rather than her's

 

[Gill]

I love clicker training. Its great for fat, muggy horses and teaches them self control. I know I've had just the very one like this!

My treats are: tiny carrots, mixed lucie nuts and pura mint pellets from simple systems plus the odd polo for really high reward.
For my foal the treats are wither scritches and attention.

I agree it helps us to train as better trainers. Read the book before you start. Try to go on an Alex K clinic when she comes back next year. You will be hooked too!

 

[Kate F.]

Just to stick in my sixpennyworth - because I'm like that!

I think we have to be very careful in making assumptions about how our horses learn. The scientists, particularly psychologists, are probably familiar with the case of "Clever Hans" - if you're not - this is a summary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans

Clever Hans' trainer believed Hans had learned arithmetic through positive reinforcement - operant conditioning. Hans tapped out the right number, and got a reward. This led the trainer to believe that Hans really had learned arithmetic in the same way a child would. However, Hans was a horse and learned like a horse. What he was actually responding to was NEGATIVE reinforcement -the change in body language when he reached the right answer. Just because your horse APPEARS to learn from the clicker, that might not be what is actually going on.

Horses are fabulous people trainers. Anyone who says their horse has never tried to train them to do anything (and probably succeeded!) is either a liar or doesn't understand the subtleties of how horses communicate. Horses train us (and each other) using pressure and release - negative reinforcement. That is their natural way to learn - and even though you can certainly train a horse using clicker/operant conditioning - that won't necessarily be the mechanism they are actually using to learn.

When Skinner wrote about operant conditioning, he was talking about rats learning to press a lever to get a food pellet. We also have to be a bit careful that we're not teaching our horses to treat us like a vending machine! As one rat said to the other "Hey, look how well I've got this guy in the white coat trained - every time I press this lever, he puts food in the tray!"

 

[Francis Burton]

Clever Hans' trainer believed Hans had learned arithmetic through positive reinforcement - operant conditioning. Hans tapped out the right number, and got a reward. This led the trainer to believe that Hans really had learned arithmetic in the same way a child would. However, Hans was a horse and learned like a horse. What he was actually responding to was NEGATIVE reinforcement -the change in body language when he reached the right answer. Just because your horse APPEARS to learn from the clicker, that might not be what is actually going on.

Hmmm... Couldn't the change in body language work like the sound of the clicker, as a bridging signal to the real reward?

 

[michelle c]

kate f

dont you think horses are very clever working out how to train us then.

my horse has trained me to turn her out first thing on a morning before the other horses go out, because if i dont, she trashes the stable, leans on the partitions, kicks her water over, turnes her feed bucket inside out and poos on it, and screams bloody murder until brought out of the stable when she acts like a little angel walking quietly to the field to be with her friends!!!!!!!

 

[annareeves0]

I think we all know our horses have trained us to be good little owners

I guess unltimately I am looking for my horse to do as I ask as a matter of trust. Ill admit to being scared of taking her out, in hand, never mind riding and I think the only way that I will ever feel confident is if she will listen to me. Ultimately thats what we all want, a horse that will listen to you when you say its OK, its not about to eat you or at least give you the benefit of the doubt and look not tank off.

I would prefer to train her using positive reinforcement as her emotional and mental well being is important to me. I am happy to look at any tools that help me do this. But, realisticaly I also acknowledge that much if not most reinforcement across the animal and human worlds is negative. Kind words will make our student feel better in the long run but a quick NO gets the message across quickly.

I dont actually see how the change in body language is a negative reinofrcement? Surely the change in body language signalled a release in pressure to which he stopped pawing or however he indicated the number?

One of my other concerns I guess was I have heard a couple of times that clicker trained horses can be a bit 'mechanical', that in any request there is always the question 'whats in it for me?' Of course I would like my horse to work for me out of love and respect but I am not sure that is realistic. I am sure it happens but I am not horsewoman enough (yet!) I think all this debate about how they learn, alpha/leader/boss, positve/negative reinforcement, make em do it or teach them to work it out etc etc is all because at the end of the day we will never be able to read a horses mind But wouldnt that be cool!

I guess I am hoping that clicker training will be just another form of communication to say 'yep, that move just then, thats what i wanted' and heres a thankyou for doing it

Its all so confusing, so contradictory, and so overwhelming how is a newbie ever supposed to get it right! In my heart I feel NH is the way to go, even if its to allow my concience let me sleep at night and if anyone has any other ideas for 'moral' tools I can use, Im happy to have a look

 

[Kate F.]

I dont actually see how the change in body language is a negative reinofrcement? Surely the change in body language signalled a release in pressure to which he stopped pawing or however he indicated the number?

That's the definition of negative reinforcement - the removal of a simulus or pressure. Positive reinforcement is adding something that wasn't there before. So the change in body language represents negative reinforcement, followed up by positive reinforcement - which is actually what pretty much any good trainer will do. The variation is in the form the signal and reinforcement take - so I use tactile positive reinforcement - stroking, scratching etc., and you may use a clicker and/or food.

Hmmm... Couldn't the change in body language work like the sound of the clicker, as a bridging signal to the real reward?

Yes, Francis, is could - but my point is that there is a danger of mis-reading and anthropomorphising the learning process if you look only at the positive reinforcement. Falling into the Clever Hans trap, if you like!

However, what makes you think food is any more real as a reward to the horse than stroking and scratching, or even the release of the pressure in the first place? Pressure and release is their instictive, natural learning system, and they are tactile animals and make each other comfortable with physical contact, not food. Surely the connection between food and reward is more a predator thing? I think the horse would maybe see it that the release of pressure is the "real" reward, and the food/stroking a nice optional extra - which it will certainly enjoy, but would still learn perfectly well without.

dont you think horses are very clever working out how to train us then.

Absolutely, Michelle! Though I'm not sure they work it out - I think it just comes naturally to them! Shame we're not such natural horse trainers as they are people trainers! My gelding has trained me to let him in first in the evening by using similar tactics! Talk about pressure and release!!

 

[LindaAd]

is!

My first question will be what are the best treats to use for my very overweight horse? I want someting worthwhile working for but very low calorie and prefereably pretty small? Any ideas?

When I first started doing groundwork with stroppy Ginny, I found that tiny scraps of polo worked wonders for getting her attention and co-operation. That's a quarter of a polo or smaller.

 

[wundahoss]

Interesting discussions always come out of these simple questions!

As it has been said well already, I won't go into detail about why 'c/t' DOES works with ALL animals(yes, even husbands & kids ). To those others who try to get thru to the rest, I think it's important to point out to people that it is the principles that are vital to learn & use - a plastic clicker, certain type of +R such as a treat, etc are by no means necessary & it is specifics such as this that may or may not work for particular animals, or at particular times.

BTW, re the original question, I use only healthy treats & amounts which aren't likely to be a prob re weight, insuline resistance, etc. I use a pelletted horse feed which is actually loved by my dogs, chooks, geese.... and my kids too I give perhaps 5-10 pellets per +R, so even in a long session I'm rarely feeding more than a bum-bag(fanny pack, to you Americans...eew! ) full. I use carrot or apple pieces, chopped to about 1" cubes, or some form of large cereal, such as cheerios, as 'jackpot' treats. I also use grass - if we're working on a spot with good grazing - and scratchies; most horses have at least one spot they enjoy a rub on.