When would you kill your horse?

[HorseHelen]

It might be fluffy but we should be kind to others as you don't know what they are going through. Firmly believe in that with suffering with anxiety and depression. It's easy to have an opinion if you aren't involved personally but when emotions are involved it's really difficult

 

[Orenoko]

Why is there an undertone of judgment and everyone clubbing together about it in this thread, aren't different people entitled to their own opinions even if you don't agree with them? And no I mean nothing about the kill discussion.

Surely if you don't agree scroll on by or tell the person directly and if you already have, scroll on by, no need to go to another apparently unrelated thread to bash their decisions, you aren't going to change the world from a forum.

New rider is becoming like a fricking school playground. I'm sure I'll be slated for saying this but this isn't the first time it has happened.

Yeah I find this thread bit odd. As someone with a lot less knowledge than most on here I value the information and opinions that can be gained from posting but this feels a little harsh.

 

[mystiquemalaika]

I've had to make this decision 3 times with my horses now and it never gets any easie4. All 3 were very different. Thomas had an accident in the stable and suffered a head injury, he never got up the decision was as clear as day to me.
Mystique had a multitude of issues in most every joint she had. We tried treatments, remedial shoeing etc. I then said no more as while there were ideas and some diagnosis there nothing was set in stone as to what was causing the most pain/discomfort. I took shoes off,retired her and she lived as a large dog for 2 years. Came in for a few hours a day fuss and sleep and spent the rest been a horse. After 7 months she was completely sound and we returned to our walks out in hand but I never rode her again. My choice. She then sadly done her check ligament. She hated box rest, I wouldn't do it to her and she lived a further 4 months on bute as she had been. She came in 1 day and she just looked tired and I said no more. Had she not done her check ligament she would still be with me as a "field ornament" she was only 8 years old when I had her pts and that little mare gave me more joy than any other horse I've had.
NaNog I only had 4 months. He had a neurological problem and severe headaches from it which caused self harming round his face and head. He became very unpredictable and dangerous very quick. There were numerous tests I could have done and tried but I was not willing to watch him suffering like he was with a poor outcome likely anyway and it had become a dangerous situation for bith himself and me.

As for the tone of some of this thread. Yes people are entitled to opinions, we all have different ones and the let's be kind etc I get but let's not pretend there is not a pattern of the "throw away" and "replace" type nature going on here with where this has come from. As FM says not a lesson I'd be teaching children and if I had a 5 year old mare (again as I have been there) with the issues shown I would try good old rest , Dr Green and all pressure of work off. I've seen it work and a very happy content horse come from it, just not one that would ever take me round a BE or win me a ribbon but she taught me more in all my years with horses than any other ridden horse I've had and that would be something I would always be for. They aren't a pair of shoes that go out of fashion, they are living breathing souls who in the case been referred to have clearly despite been in pain done nothing but look after a child even when desperately trying to say you know what I'm sore. Do I think that animal deserves a break? Yes I absolutely do and this isn't a novice new owner with the fate of the horse in their hands.

Yes they are expensive,time consuming etc but I will never agree with them been only useful as anything other than a ribbon winner. My feelings are like this across the board with animals all round though and I'm disappointed daily in humanity in how they treat(or don't treat) them and what a throw away mind set so many have now and I am tired of it.

 

[Jessey]

I don't actually completely disagree with any of it, I just think it could be dealt with differently. I don't see why anyone would place the opinion of strangers on the Internet above that of a highly regarded professional/veterinary practice who has actually seen the animal, or why anyone would expect them to, then when it's ignored (possibly temporarily, we don't know yet) there's ongoing discussion in a negative way.

I don't have a problem with anyone in particular, nor the gist of it, but I do think it could be more considerate of the fact that we don't know all details (you just can't without seeing it/being there).

One of the things I really love about NR is that we can discuss difficult topics without offending/upsetting (or what ever other negative you want to insert) each other and have very good discussions where everyone can learn and even if you don't agree, see another perspective.

 

[Cortrasna]

Well, well so interesting to hear all your opinions on 'when would you kill your horse' This was actually the question I asked and I clearly stated in my original post that this was NOT in relation to KP and her current issues but her thread had sparked my interest in the varying thoughts on when you would kill your horse and when you would not?

I would like to make that 100 per cent clear and regret to see some find this thread a bit 'odd' or has an undertone of judgement and clubbing together about it, regrettably I feel that says far more about your intentions when posting a response, but thank you for your input even though it veers far from the original question and merely highlights any poster or previous threads that you might be attempting to validate. I find that judgemental actually and why are you 'ganging up' on this thread then - just read and walk on by if the content of this thread is not to your liking?

Anyway back to basics - I can see why, especially with people who haven't their own facility and are at livery would make the decision to euthanasia a horse that could no longer be used even if it were still field sound. It is easy for me to say I would never kill a field sound horse that had given me good service and loyalty no matter how young or old as I have my own land etc. so I have been lucky enough to retire any that reached that stage of life with me, one more in the field really isnt such a big expense but if I were paying livery on my pension I doubt I could be quite so certain on that. I also thought Jane's honesty and reasons were very valid and so refreshing to hear the truth about why you would make that decision - I suspect if I were in the same position that she feared I would also kill. Making that decision can also often be a financial decision, I do see that and respect those who have to make it based on their personal financial position, and i would not criticise that so long as your decision is an honest one.

for my current position I would as always keep any of my 3 on as field ornaments even with lameness issues that could be helped by bute etc, but would never, ever bute to ride. Anything that left them in very significant discomfort and pain that made even walking around the field grazing distressful for them then I would kill immediately. If I had a younger horse that I had great plans for and it became unfit for those plans but still suitable for a low level hacker I would still keep it (never sell on to open to abuse in its future) but would probably try and find a loan home where it could still enjoy one to one with a little hacking around etc.

Thanks for you replys everyone, really interesting to read those who responded to the question so honestly.

 

[Lemme]

Interesting thread, for me its when the quality of life would be such that basically you would keeping then alive for yourself - the hardest part of ownership is making that decision, we have lost 3 ponies, 1 Natural causes, 1 from an allergic reaction to a drug and not chance to reverse and 1 where it meant we knew that to treat would have an effect on his welfare and possibly cause more suffering without a positive prognosis of a recovery, we could have treated and the outcome be the same with the stress for him that would have gone with it.

We have Tess now at 29 who has long term health issues with her COPD combined with those of old age, this year she suffered the loss of her companion, was depressed and combined with her condition, age and excessive heat lost a lot of weight, we looked at her and tbh putting her out onto 3 acres of grass and giving her Baileys NO: 15 was our last hope to see if she would turn a corner, as she was we expected having to make a decision before winter. Well we are pleased to say that its worked , she still has her COPD that will not change but on her 6 monthly check last week the Vet was pleased with her considering , her COPD has not worsened and she is putting on weight, she is happy grazing around the field with no pressure on her and was quite happy to make him walk after her before allowing him to examine her in her time. She winnies when you go the field again and walks briskly to the fence and is interested in what is going on and almost licks the surface off her feed bowl, she talks to her friends over the fence when she feels like it and goes off on her own when she wants her own space, she has really turned a corner over the past 2 weeks, we know a time will come when we will have to let her go but she has decided for us its not now.

She's Family, we don't move them on when they are no longer of use or fulfilling the purpose, we are lucky that we can afford to keep them without expecting anything other than the love and friendship they offer us in return for an awful lot of money/time and worry but worth every ounce/pound , theres many a time over the past years I could have given up on life had it not be for a hairy friend to cuddle and cry with.

for most owners to make the decision to Let them go, PTS, Kill them however you want to say it is the hardest decision to make, not taken lightly and hurts like hell, not to be judged IMO.

 

[Jessey]

@Cortrasna I'm sorry you feel I was judging the original intent of the thread I wasn't, I think it's a good, thought and discussion provoking thread. It was just some of the comments made that prompted my 2nd reply, my first being specifically to the thread question. I'm not trying to validate anything, but felt drawing attention to how some comments could be perceived was worth mentioning. Sorry for veering off topic on your thread.

 

[Cortrasna]

Not a problem @Jessey - every school playground needs it's head teacher so!

 

[MrC]

I don’t like horses being seen as disposable playthings, it doesn’t sit well with me. That’s the long and short of it.

I could have papped Kia aside and got another horse five years ago when I retired him from competitions, i didn’t. I also could have done what some of my very well respected friends did when they found out their horse had cushings and PTS rather than play about with the meds like I have and basically cost myself a small fortune and more than enough to buy another horse. However he owned me nothing and now I owe him nothing, I have done what I could and not even field rest and dr green will help him now he’s struggling to eat grass too.

The undercurrent is there because quite frankly it’s here no matter what as we all read threads and because we are all passionate about horses then views can and will be shared. It’s a forum, every individual has a voice, many won’t like what’s being posted and some of us are quite frankly disgusted on a daily basis with many things that are posted on here not just by KP, I want to shake about 6people on here right now as what they are doing is grinding my gears as hey just don’t know how bloody lucky they are.

 

[mystiquemalaika]

Every horse is different and i make decisions based on whats in front of me at the time and yes trust your vet but also have a notion of reality that they are not a magician and cant fix or know everything.

Kill, pts, euthanize etc however you wish to put it is not the worst fate I'd like to make that clear but what gets me is so many people are happy to carry on with months and £££££'s of treatments under a vet without ever truly knowing how much pain a horse is in but are often not willing to try a good old bit of nature and rest. To me that is a throw away nature in alot of cases.

Sorry @Cortrasna I know this is not what you were asking but as some feel it is indeed what this thread was about I'll answer honestly on here as I won't bother replying to that thread.

You are right Jessey we don't know everything but then how could we as there are a certain few on here who only answer questions that they want to answer and only reply to people who agree or massage their ego. Not criticism, simply a fact.

Top and bottom of it for me, I would kill a horse of mine when they could no longer live a basic standard of life as a horse. E.g. complete box rest, very limited turnout etc.

The other circumstances I would do it is if I had a "problem" or "quirky" health or personality horse that securing a good home for in the event I could not keep them was very very low to none. Torin would go back to the rescue. Rhan would 1st be offered back to her breeder for example.

 

[Flipo's Mum]

I thought about removing my comment following your very valid point @Jessey.
But while others can say what they like, so can I, and where I say it and to whom, is my choice. I don’t think there’s any point posting it on someone else’s thread as unsolicited, and probably not constructive feedback, but it doesn’t mean to say I have to stay permanently quiet on the issue. If I have an opinion I should be able to state it and I have done in a place where I feel the conversation is relevant. The fact that a few others share the opinion is fine, but there are others on this thread who don’t share my view so I think we can say it’s not a playground, it’s just a place where there is various opinions and feelings aired.

 

[newforest]

I already decided when I bought Star that I would never put her through surgery for colic. I still stand by that decision with Mylo.
I think it depends on the horse too. Star had to do box rest, which I knew she would be fine with. I listened to my vet 12 months ago ( a different one to the one who normally comes out to me) when Star first came down with laminitis. We got her through the first bad bout. She had two second mild bouts, which only needed a couple of days inside. But when the second bad attack came, I knew I would have to euthanise. She was bright and alert though, and very happy apart from her sore feet, so it was a very difficult decision for me to make. In the end, she made it for me, there was something in her eyes which just asked for help. Two days before the date I had set in my mind.
Seeing one of my friends dying last month from Cancer makes me glad that we are able to make this decision for our pets, to save them from an awful death.

I had gone to a vet talk on laminitus, colic and lameness not long before my chap went ill.
We had a chat on the way home about the what would you do. Nobody really knew.
I didn't get time to think, he was being prepped in case I said yes when I arrived.

I agree it comes down to the horse, their age, their likelyhood of coping with box rest and restricted turnout for what will probably be a year. Looking after horses that live out doesnt prepare you for a post surgery horse.
Also it comes down to facilities you have access to, your time, the costs and the emotional rollercoaster.
Mine is 'fine' with box rest for a short period. But the herd starting calling her back which was sweet but didn't help! Even with a lame horse you realistically need to figure in about four - six months.

 

[Kite_Rider]

Very interesting thread @Cortrasna
For me I would ‘kill’ Belle if she wasn’t sound in the field and the vets didn’t think she ever would be.
I’ve also decided that should she colic and need surgery I wouldn’t put her through that, she’s coming up 22 now and she wouldn’t cope with box rest, I know lots of horses get used to it and if she were a younger horse my decision might be different, but she’s an older arthritic girl who loves to be outside and moving I can’t think of anything worse for her mental well-being that box rest following surgery.
I love her dearly and as long as she is happy in a field she’s going no where.

 

[domane]

Gosh, this thread has got very touchy! I was totally honest about Jack and I'm now wondering if I'm being judged as a throwaway owner!

I do think that it is a very sensitive subject though and it is clearly raising strong emotions.

 

[Cortrasna]

Gosh, this thread has got very touchy! I was totally honest about Jack and I'm now wondering if I'm being judged as a throwaway owner!

I do think that it is a very sensitive subject though and it is clearly raising strong emotions.

well if it is of any value Domane - I didnt read anything like that in your response - your opinions resonated with me in relation to several pets I have had over the years (y)

 

[Kite_Rider]

@domane i didn’t read your post in that way either, quite the opposite in fact.
The problem is I think that it’s one of those decisions that none of us want to have to make but that sadly we are all going to at some point and we all have our own reasons for making that decision, not everyone can afford to keep a horse for its lifetime, either time or money or both and I understand that, I’m lucky that while I’m not rolling in cash I have the luxury to be able to keep Belle come what may unless something catastrophic happens in my personal life, another reason I would ‘kill’ her would be if I found myself in such dire straights that I could no longer keep her, I would far rather that than have her end up god knows where, with god knows who.
That may sound callous but I’ve seen far to many older horses being sold on when they can no longer compete/jump/hack etc as ‘much loved family Horse, owned since a youngster and been foot perfect’ that’s the sort of thing that really gets my goat.

 

[Cortrasna]

another reason I would ‘kill’ her would be if I found myself in such dire straights that I could no longer keep her, I would far rather that than have her end up god knows where, with god knows who.
That may sound callous but I’ve seen far to many older horses being sold on when they can no longer compete/jump/hack etc as ‘much loved family Horse, owned since a youngster and been foot perfect’ that’s the sort of thing that really gets my goat.

I perhaps should have remembered to add that possible scenario to my own thoughts on it all. I do have certain things set up should a sudden and unexpected health/change of circumstances mean I am no longer able to care for them but with the proviso those caring for Dolly and the donks to be supervised by my eldest son and if it is not working in either Dolly or the donks best interests then they are all to be humanely destroyed. heartbreaking thought it might come to that after my demise but like you I can think of nothing worse than the many, many older horses that find themselves thrown on the scrap heap after buting up etc. to sell on as sound etc. by unscrupulous buyers and even loaners in some cases. Sadly a lot of the rescue centres over here are filled with these once much loved oldies (and a lot of injured/sick younger ones too ) .very often too broken to have any quality of life left but greedy and selfish owners without the moral integrity to give them the dignified end they need and deserve.

 

[OwnedbyChanter]

So back on thread...

Most of you know that Chanter is with me for a few more weeks until I have him PTS. He wintered badly last year he will not lay down in his stable and will only lay down in his field when he was on three to four bute a day. I spent the last months of winter in tears with him. My vet said to give as much bute as needed to make him comfortable and give him the summer.

I wish I hadn't. The summer was too hot for him he hates the flies and the lush grass dried up and he was back on full winter feeds and hay in the field. He was more feed than Ginger but lost so much weight I can't stop crying when I look at him. I couldn't bring him in through the heat as he screams and paces which would of made him worse. He is still on bute now but dropped to 2 a day.

So I have set the date. The yard have been informed, my friends are aware, I have clipped his tail and sent the hair off now as I want part of him on me when I lose him. I have also given away his rugs. I have done all this is I can't go back on my decisions. I know in my heart it is the right thing to do. My vet, farrier and physio agree.

He is 26/27 not sure which tbh. He has been retired for about 3 years and was happy until this winter. I can't put him through another I currently feel I am keeping him for me and Ginger. I don't know how he will be, he has never been on is own.

I feel heart broken already and seeing him every day I feel blessed that he choose me. I will be there until the end.

 

[MrC]

@OwnedbyChanter i know where you are coming from completely. When your old man looks like this


at this time of the year and is only weighing in at 450kgs when he should be 490-500kgs going into winter comfortably and is struggling to eat.

This time last year he looked like this



He came out of winter this year only weighing about 400kgs. He looked like sh!t and I was crying a lot as well. It’s hard isn’t it. Harder to make the call when they are perky and a couple of weeks ago in more work he looked better Beginning to rough him back off and expecting him to put on weight and he’s losing it

We do our best x

 

[Cortrasna]

@OwnedbyChanter and @MrC I know only too well what you are both going through and it is hateful and hurtful. but both your horse's are so very lucky to have ended up their last days with you two ladys, like all of us you are the only ones who know when the time is right for your own horses, but I am 100 per cent confident you will get it right, you both care too much not to

Interesting point OBC about getting them through the summer as opposed to getting them through the winter. I remember having a conversation with my vet in Solly's last year and saying I was worried about the up coming winter and if he would struggle - he told me the summer is far harder on old, failing horses in his opinion. In Solly's case he was right, he sailed through the winter but as early as the following May the heat, flys and hard ground took their toll and it was time.

so sorry with what you are both struggling to deal with right now x