Whips as both encouragement and punishment

[An_Riz]

In my lesson yesterday the horse I was riding refused the jump, once it was my fault as I was tired at that point and not fully focused. The second time my RI told me that it was the horse's fault, and said "you're mad at her now so give her a smack on the shoulder!". In reality I wasn't angry with the horse at all. We were both tired towards the end of our jumping lesson and I thought "no big deal, I'll just circle around and use more leg when doing the jump again to encourage her!". I tend to carry a whip in my lessons just as a back up. If needs be I lightly tap the horse's shoulders if I get a messy canter transition where it's just a faster trot and my legs aren't strong enough.

I think using the whip one minute for encouragement and the next minute for punishment doesn't make sense. My RI tells me I have to be more firm with the horses or I will keep getting refusals, and perhaps that is true but I don't think smacking them hard when they refuse a jump is the way to go about it. I can't bring myself to punish them that way. I would rather stop riding altogether as goes against every fibre of my being.

So my question is, should horses be punished with whips AT ALL or should they simply be firmly encouraged to do the right thing with leg aids, vocal encouragement etc to perform the correct task? Shouldn't we always set them up for success instead of scaring them with the whip? Also, if the timing isn't perfect for a punishment I don't think it makes sense to the horse, she doesn't know what she is being hit for.

Sorry this is so long winded but I am really torn with this issue. Basically I think light, consistent taps to encourage them to find the right answer but NEVER for punishment. Same way as you wouldn't kick a horse in the side for being naughty. Or perhaps you would... I don't know. It's the easy way out and a good way to vent a rider's anger at times but not the real solution. I would love to hear your thoughts.

 

[CharliesAngel]

i think you are confusing the term ‘encouragement’ and believing it to be positive or nice... when you use your whip to encourage your horse into a fence it should be because they are backing off and have already ignored your leg aid. Thus it is all ready a punishment , a reminder saying HEY! you WILL listen to me! A smack with a whip is fine as long as it is well timed and not excessive. I absolutely would give my horse a kick in the side if it absolutely needed it - a horse is half a ton of animal and they have to respect you.

 

[Trewsers]

I used to carry a whip and if need be tap my boot with it. I never had to actually use it on Storm. Where I took lessons on school horses we were never allowed to use a whipe or carry one.
I am sure there'll be other people on here that can offer up their own experience and points of view.

 

[OwnedbyChanter]

Completely agree with @CharliesAngel when jumping I only use the whip approaching a jump if they stop it's to late to use it and that would be in used in temper.

But if you use a whip at all it's because they aren't listening to your leg aid so it is punishment. It's a firmer ask then the original aid.

A constant gentle tap or a whip is just as bad as a constant nag with the leg aid. If you are using a whip it should be used correctly.

 

[Skib]

It does depend on the riding school and the horse. One may be told to carry a whip because the horse respects riders who have a whip - even when not used.
The big unknown for me is that one has no idea how the horses were initially backed and ridden when they were very young.
The other thing to bear in mind is the use of a whip to signal And ask for movement in several contexts which seem perfectly legitimate - driving, long reigning, lunging etc.

 

[Kite_Rider]

I don't think you should ever, hit a horse out of anger or frustration.
I have and will use a whip on Belle if she is ignoring me out hacking, for safety sake when I say move it needs to be instant, so yes I will back up my leg with my whip if she ignores me, but to smack after the event in my mind is wrong and I can't believe your instructor told you to smack her because you were angry! I know who'd be getting the sharp end of the whip in that situation and it most certainly wouldn't be the horse.

 

[orbvalley]

I have kicked my horse once actually She kicked me with her rear foot whilst I was hoof picking, my reflexes kicked her back before I'd even had time to blink. She was young, she's never attempted to kick me nor anyone else again.
I do use a crop and yes sometimes it is for punishment if you like, like when we're out hiking and she chucks a paddy. She gets dangerous if I don't nip it in the bud straight away. In the school I always carry it but use it rarely and its always as a back up to my leg.
She's not however afraid of the crop or me but she does understand the boundaries Half a tonne of feisty mare needs to know them too

 

[Calder]

When I use a whip in a riding lesson, it's most often a tap-tap with a schooling whip on JB's hindquarters when leg-yielding to encourage him to move his hindquarters and not just his shoulders. It's like saying: 'Look, this way', or 'This part of you'.

However I am also encouraged by my RI to use it when he's being lazy or not listening. As it's a signal that he knows, and because it works and (most of all) because I believe it to be kinder than continual pony-club kicks, I will use it. I hate seeing horses repeatedly smacked and will not do so myself. But on this particular horse, my preference (and experience) is that using it once, early on in a lesson, is enough. I've also experienced it having no effect later on in a lesson when we are both tired - my belief is using it in that situation is counterproductive and unfair. I wouldn't dream of using it without a clear sense of what it's meant to achieve, and certainly not because I was angry. But it has its place within a relationship that is not and can't be one of equals, for the sake of both parties. Horses are herd animals who continually nip, butt, kick and barge each other, so if we want to join their herd we need to speak their language. Not to do so may not actually be in their best interests.

 

[Tir]

Someone who teaches me has a phrase, 'purpose is NOT a punishment.' After the event is too late, but he is not against using the whip, with the right timing, to encourage the horse to stay on the aids and into the bridle to a fence.

Its actually safer for you and the horse, especially if you are XC, where a mistake doesnt fall down, you need the horse to follow your instructions.

 

[Jane&Ziggy]

My RI has me carrying my whip at the moment. If I ask for more forwards (going up a gear or just improving the energy of the gait) and I don't get it, I can whack my boot with the whip.

If we're doing groundwork, I can tap Ziggy's legs of bottom with the whip to get him to respond. Not hit, just tap, annoying enough that eventually he will do something.

Neither of us like the idea of hitting a horse with a whip.

 

[Jessey]

i think you are confusing the term ‘encouragement’ and believing it to be positive or nice... when you use your whip to encourage your horse into a fence it should be because they are backing off and have already ignored your leg aid. Thus it is all ready a punishment , a reminder saying HEY! you WILL listen to me! A smack with a whip is fine as long as it is well timed and not excessive. I absolutely would give my horse a kick in the side if it absolutely needed it - a horse is half a ton of animal and they have to respect you.

This

 

[An_Riz]

I don't think you should ever, hit a horse out of anger or frustration.
I have and will use a whip on Belle if she is ignoring me out hacking, for safety sake when I say move it needs to be instant, so yes I will back up my leg with my whip if she ignores me, but to smack after the event in my mind is wrong and I can't believe your instructor told you to smack her because you were angry! I know who'd be getting the sharp end of the whip in that situation and it most certainly wouldn't be the horse.

I know, I was surprised she said that to me because to be honest I wasn't even angry! In fact I think both times we my fault. Annoying that I love my RI and my lessons but this way of teaching I really don't like.

 

[An_Riz]

My RI has me carrying my whip at the moment. If I ask for more forwards (going up a gear or just improving the energy of the gait) and I don't get it, I can whack my boot with the whip.

If we're doing groundwork, I can tap Ziggy's legs of bottom with the whip to get him to respond. Not hit, just tap, annoying enough that eventually he will do something.

Neither of us like the idea of hitting a horse with a whip.

hitting your own boot is a good idea actually, to wake the horse up and get them listening. Dont know why I never thought about it before.

 

[An_Riz]

@Calder that way of using a whip makes sense to me, as an extra aid asking the horse to do something or move in a specific way. Same as @Skib said about whips being used in a variety of different situations to ask for certain movements, and not just as a harsh/stern push on. At least thats what I got from what skib said - correct me if not!

 

[An_Riz]

Completely agree with @CharliesAngel when jumping I only use the whip approaching a jump if they stop it's to late to use it and that would be in used in temper.

But if you use a whip at all it's because they aren't listening to your leg aid so it is punishment. It's a firmer ask then the original aid.

A constant gentle tap or a whip is just as bad as a constant nag with the leg aid. If you are using a whip it should be used correctly.

I agree that if you use the whip when they stop it would indeed be used in a temper. Timing is everything and I am still getting used to know when is logical to use it. But I dont think it's true that if you use a whip at all it is for punishment. Many riders and schools teach you to use the whip in different ways, I've seen people do light taps to get the horse to think through a problem until it figures out the correct movement or behaviour. People may think this is as bad as nagging the horse with kick after kick but it really depends on the horse and rider. Some riders use whips if they have very weak legs for whatever reason and so the whip simply acts as a normal aid. But as I said I am still getting used to it and have a lot to learn, it's certainly an interesting topic.

 

[newforest]

The big unknown for me is that one has no idea how the horses were initially backed and ridden when they were very young.

What difference would that make? I have no idea how any horse was started under saddle, apart from the one I am sat on currently as I started her myself.
The whip is an extension of my leg for riding and an extension of my arm for groundwork.

 

[newforest]

Using it in temper is wrong. This is an example of when NOT to use the whip. You really do not want an instructor to be teaching you to vent your anger on your horse.
I have got bloody annoyed and dismounted. Walked around for a bit. Sorted myself out and continued. We all get piddled off emotions as a human. But no way should I dish out anger towards a creature that wouldn't dish it out to me.

 

[KP nut]

Your horse had refused twice. You admit you weren't focused and your attitude was still 'no big deal I'll just circle again'. Your RI's comments just sound like she was trying to get you bit more positive and determined to me.

 

[carthorse]

The big unknown for me is that one has no idea how the horses were initially backed and ridden when they were very young.
.

What difference would that make? I have no idea how any horse was started under saddle, apart from the one I am sat on currently as I started her myself.
.

@newforest I completely agree with this. I get so fed up with hearing a horse's past, often assumed rather than known, being used as an excuse. Like us horses continue to learn & change throughout their lives if we allow them, one less than ideal experience shouldn't ruin them for life & learning one thing doesn't mean they can't learn something else. I'd say that in nearly all cases temperament is far more of a factor than history.

 

[KP nut]

ETA I should make it clear that I in no way advocate punishing horses or taking my frustrations out on them. But I think it is worth also bearing in mind that riding ineffectively does horses no favours either. Some horses need positive and determined riding because they take confidence from that. Others need it for motivation - after all why should they expend precious energy jumping if they don't get the sense that it matters terribly much either way?

Also sometimes RI's think they need to 'over-correct' to get a shift in the right direction. My daughters RI could be heard shouting 'get a hold of him and BOOT HIM which sounded dreadful but the outcome of that was a rider who just about got the loops out of her reins and applied a leg aid the horse could actually feel