Young horse - training aids?

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heartofrainbow

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First some background info!

Well I have been having a bit of trouble with my youngster (3 and a bit year old welsh d) ... she didn't settle in the field that we moved to, so have moved back to the previous place and she has begun to settle down!

The lady that I have bought her from has just bought another, and asked for a hand with him and I have just seen how she starts youngsters and was quite shocked :eek:! Too much too soon and in a very short space of time!

Anyway, I have now made the decision to take her right back to the beginning! I intend to lunge and long rein her, and was just reading an article in a magazine that recommended using side reins and chambon to encourage using the hindlimbs and developing back muscles and to begin to accept a contact.

She is already lunged and I may hack her out once a week with a mature horse just to keep her ticking over. And I am considering turning her away for the winter, and possibly sending her away in the spring for some schooling - but I haven't actually decided about this yet!

So what do you all think? Any experience with young horses and training aids? Any advice welcome!

Thanks x
 
What kind of trouble are you having? How old was she when she was backed?

I'd be inclined to just quietly hack out with an experienced horse once or twice a week until the clocks change, then turn her away for the winter, only doing basic handling and no lungeing, long reining or riding until Spring 09, then bringing her back into work.

Often a good break does them the world of good and allows them to grow up mentally and they come back far better than before.
 
I'm not sure what exactly you are asking.
Are you asking if its ok to use training aids while lunging a horse?
Because the answer to that, is yes, unequivocally. They mimic a rein contact, allow the horse to stretch down into the contact while still using their hind end. I'm a firm believer in using something for lunging. I don't thing they get as many benefits if on the circle if they are just left to run around.

But if you mean what should you do with the youngster, that's up to you and how he's responding.
Some people really like to turn the horse out for the winter. Others like to work them through it-lightly. Others still just wait longer to initially start the horse.
I think that if she's mentally handling everything, I wouldn't turn her out, but that's just my own personal preference.
Lunge her, maybe pony her, start gently riding her, whatever.
Just keep in simple and easy :)
 
ithink that if you feel it will benifit her going back then its a good idea and definatly wont do any harm. I personally wouldnt use training aides to get her to engage her back end. I would just work on her learning whats expected of her comfortably then when shes older and more developed see if you feel you want/need to use them then. just my opinion im no expert!
 
I prefer not to use them personally. With a bit of skill and thought it's perfectly possible to get a horse working well on the lunge with no gadgets at all. My youngster (four and a half) is lunging off a headcollar atm, has been introduced to the roller too. He has worn a bit, and in the next few weeks I'll put him in some vienna reins on the lunge just so that he gets the idea of accepting a contact before backing. But will I use gadgets to create an outline? No way.
 
jenb said:
I prefer not to use them personally. With a bit of skill and thought it's perfectly possible to get a horse working well on the lunge with no gadgets at all. My youngster (four and a half) is lunging off a headcollar atm, has been introduced to the roller too. He has worn a bit, and in the next few weeks I'll put him in some vienna reins on the lunge just so that he gets the idea of accepting a contact before backing. But will I use gadgets to create an outline? No way.
Click to expand...

I don't think the majority of people use sidereins to force an outline. I think its a natural progression in lunging. Once the horse understands what forward means, its time to step things up a bit.
Side reins, and a chambon (which I think is a bit gentler then side reins) help balance a horse and should invite the horse to reach for the bit. It's not a shortcut to force an outline but it can help show a horse how to stretch and accept some contact before a rider gets on his back .

But heartofrainbow, remember, there are hundreds of ways to train a horse. Everyone has the same goal of producing a happy, well adjusted young horse. How you go about doing it depends on the individual horse, your experiences and your own ideas.
 
Show jumper - the trouble I have been having was with her being aggressive to the other horses and beating up my other pony, but she started to become slightly difficult to handle ... and decided that it would be better to go back to where we used to be, where she was more settled! And she has settled down, quite abit over the last few days! I have several friends with very sensible horses, so intend to hack her out with them once a week.

SkyHuntress - I read an q&a in your horse I think and the "expert" suggested that the owner of the 3 year old asking the question use side reins and a chambon to vary the work and to encourage working over there back to help build muscle - and just wondered if other people had done something similar with their youngsters? She seems happy and able to cope with what I am asking at the moment, so think I will continue to hack her and lunge her

JennJ - I think that it will benefit her, as after seeing her previous owners techniques for working with a youngster - which is very rushed and not done over a long period of time (i.e., from very little to ridden in the space of a week) - I felt that maybe she had done the same with mine and would like her to have a much better level of education!

I was not asking about forcing an outline, or anything like that! Just wondered what other people had done/are doing with their youngsters!?
 
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i like using flexi reins on young horses and lunging in a pessoa (loosely)

i find this encourages them to work from behind at an early age and gets them to respect the rein contact

my youngster was broken last year and i kept him ticking over and he only had a short break (about 3-4 months. i usually leave for 5-6) as he enjoyed his work and seemed fine with the workload i was giving him (hacking and very light schooling)

i think it just depends on the horses attitude and how they are coping with what you are doing with them

i do think that a break really does help them tho because it gives them a chance for everything to sink in and allows them to grow up a bit more
 
I didn't use the word "force"! I said create - and most people do use gadgets to create an outline. I personally choose not to, I'd rather spend a bit longer on the training and get results without. Just my personal preference.
 
The most important thing to teach a horse is to go forward in any pace. Once the horse has a really good paces easily and moves forward well, thats when you then want to encourage the horse to then use the muscles over the back and neck. These are the muscles needed to comfortably carry a rider and work well.

How this is achieved is down to personal preference. One of the most common problems inexperienced trainers have is that they put a training aid onto the horse that rounds the neck and head but the back end is still in China and they are just plodding on the end of the rope...but at least their round right so it must be working!?!? Most training aids only concentrate on the front end.

I personally like training aids that Encourage an outline but take in the whole body which is why i like the Pessoa. They aren't fighting against a solid tension like side-reins or chambon and they can move their head wherever but it is comfortable in our desired position. If you can get the horse nice and forward in a Pessoa then you can't go far wrong but it can be alot to ask of a younger horse. Start with it very loose so that they just notice a little contact but it isn't asking for anything. When they are working really well in a Pessoa and they are nicely built up then yoou can introduce a more solid contact like side reins to mimic a rein contact.

Plenty of transitions and dont let the horse stay in one pace for length of time as they will switch off and fall onto the forehand. They have to use their back end to kick up a gear so transitions really help to build them up.

However after saying all this, The behaviour your describing is often found in horses that are maturing to quickly and feel they have to take on adult responsibilities before their ready, So they compensate by going over the top. This is often when aggression kicks in and they become very depressed. Well done for recognising this and taking a few steps back, it might have just saved you from a very aggressive horse in the future!

If you feel happy about it, i would turn her out till Spring. Welshes don't mature until they are 6, very late, so she is only a toddler really. It would do her a lot of good to just do nothing and you will see a complete attitude change to work. However i now this is always possible so it is just really important you just take it slow. If you are going to lunge her, you have to commit yourself and do it regularly for any benefit physically to come through. I feel that a Chambon would be to much for her at the moment imo. As a high head carriage breed, asking her to work low will be asking a lot at her young age, and as the chambon puts pressure on the poll if they resist, she could well panic and find it uncomfortable untill she understands what you are asking.

Sorry, i blabbed alot but i hope this helped.
 
Sasca said:
I personally like training aids that Encourage an outline but take in the whole body which is why i like the Pessoa. They aren't fighting against a solid tension like side-reins or chambon and they can move their head wherever but it is comfortable in our desired position. If you can get the horse nice and forward in a Pessoa then you can't go far wrong but it can be alot to ask of a younger horse. Start with it very loose so that they just notice a little contact but it isn't asking for anything. When they are working really well in a Pessoa and they are nicely built up then yoou can introduce a more solid contact like side reins to mimic a rein contact.

Sorry, i blabbed alot but i hope this helped.
Click to expand...

Thanks, this was really helpful! I already lunge her once/twice a week, so she is quite good on the lunge, so I may increase this! She works at a medium pace at the moment, so will focus on getting her going more forward! After that I will encourage her to work over the back and the neck.

I have a training aid called an equi ami, which is like a pessoa, and I currently use it on my other horse, and like the pessoa you can have different levels on it so I may introduce that at some point.

And I think that I will turn her away over the winter, as I have no facilities to ride/lunge in, unless I lunge in the field and it may do her some good to have a break and mature a little bit!

I think with the us moving to a new field, and socialising with new horses etc was possibly a bit to much for her! And like I said the lady that backed her does way too much, too soon, without giving the horse a chance to take it in etc!

This is my first youngster, so although I am quite experienced with older horses, this is new to me and was not quite sure what the best way was to go about it!
 
Good for you, there's no rush at all. If your in it for a buisness then trainors need to come up with the most efficient way of training horses in general. Sounds like her last owner took this a little too far! If your doing it for youself then you can take as much time as you like and get it right. Have fun and good luck with her
 
I'd be very wary of doing too much lungling with a youngster, esp a 3 yo. Bones are not developed yet.

These's a good article here.

http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/ranger.html

TIMING AND RATE OF SKELETAL MATURATION IN HORSES

Great article on the age a horse becomes mature and its related impact on starting age and type of training.

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Excerpt

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The Schedule of Growth-Plate Conversion to Bone

The process of converting the growth plates to bone goes from the bottom of the animal up. In other words, the lower down toward the hoofs you look, the earlier the growth plates will have fused; and the higher up toward the animal's back you look, the later. The growth plate at the top of the coffin bone (the most distal bone of the limb) is fused at birth. What that means is that the coffin bones get no taller after birth (they get much larger around, though, by another mechanism). That's the first one. In order after that:


Short pastern - top and bottom between birth and 6 months.

Long pastern - top and bottom between 6 months and one year.

Cannon bone - top and bottom between 8 months and 1.5 years

Small bones of the knee - top and bottom of each, between 1.5 and 2.5 years

Bottom of radius-ulna - between 2 and 2.5 years

Weight-bearing portion of glenoid notch at top of radius - between 2.5 and 3 years
Humerus - top and bottom, between 3 and 3.5 years

Scapula - glenoid or bottom (weight-bearing) portion – between 3.5 and 4 years

Hindlimb - lower portions same as forelimb

Hock - this joint is "late" for as low down as it is; growth plates on the tibial and fibular tarsals don't fuse until the animal is four (so the hocks are a known "weak point" - even the 18th-century literature warns against driving young horses in plow or other deep or sticky footing, or jumping them up into a heavy load, for danger of spraining their hocks).

Tibia - top and bottom, between 3 and 3.5 years

Femur - bottom, between 3 and 3.5 years; neck, between 2.5 and 3 years; major and 3rd trochanters, between 2.5 and 3 years

Pelvis - growth plates on the points of hip, peak of croup (tubera sacrale), and points of buttock (tuber ischii), between 3 and 4 years.

And what do you think is last? The vertebral column, of course. A normal horse has 32 vertebrae between the back of the skull and the root of the dock, and there are several growth plates on each one, the most important of which is the one capping the centrum. These do not fuse until the horse is at least 5 ½ years old (and this figure applies to a small-sized, scrubby, range-raised mare. The taller your horse and the longer its neck, the later the last fusions will occur. And for a male - is this a surprise? - you add six months. So, for example, a 17-hand Thoroughbred or Saddlebred or Warmblood gelding may not be fully mature until his 8th year - something that owners of such individuals have often told me that they "suspected)

Significance of the Closure Schedule for Injuries to Back and Neck vs. Limbs

The lateness of vertebral "closure" is most significant for two reasons. One: in no limb are there 32 growth plates! Two: the growth plates in the limbs are (more or less) oriented perpendicular to the stress of the load passing through them, while those of the vertebral chain are oriented parallel to weight placed upon the horse's back. Bottom line: you can sprain a horse's back (i.e. displace the vertebral physes - see Figs. 5 and 8) a lot more easily than you can displace those located in the limbs.

Here's another little fact: within the chain of vertebrae, the last to fully close" are those at the base of the animal's neck (that's why the long-necked individual may go past 6 years to achieve full maturity - it's the base of his neck that is still growing). So you have to be careful - very careful - not to yank the neck around on your young horse, or get him in any situation where he strains his neck (i.e., better learn how to get a horse broke to tie before you ever tie him up, so that there will be no likelihood of him ever pulling back hard. For more on this, see separate article in this issue).
 
My filly is now 3 1/2 and I've only started riding out, maybe once a month, around the block. We live in a sort of suburban-semi-rural area. Up to now I've taken her on walks at least once a week. She watches me school my other horse all the time, and she learned her word commands on her own. I only lunge about every 2 months, to see if she remembers. The "aids" I've been trying to teach her besides words is to go forward. The other things, like leg-yielding, seem to come naturally.:D My advice: continue with ground work but don't let it get boring, take her for adventure walks especially while she's in her exploring age, let her learn on her own. Oh, I ride in a Wintec Western saddle with a jimmy-rigged :o bosal (bitless).
 
Personnaly I would turn her away until the summer now and leave her to mature. The more you do with them when they are young the more pressure you are putting on her joints and remember she wont be fully matured yet.

As for thinking about using training aids, I wouldnt especially when they are so young. Whats the rush, you need to bring her on slowly at her pace. Dont burn her out before she has started!!!
 
absolutely echo the above comment about turning her away now. I too have a welsh section D, he's four and a half now and only just mature enough for me to think about backing. mentally he's probably a bit behind hence his frequent hissy fits. I have used side reins on him, VERY loosely to get him used to the concept of contact but ONLY after his lungeing was fully established. it's far more important they learn to go forward from voice aid or the lunge whip, don't get hung up with outlines and things. I too agree three is too young to lunge. I refused to lunge mine (we stuck to long reining and inhand hacking) til he reached his fourth birthday earlier this year. I'd rather his joints weren't put under unnecessary strain.
 
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