Aggressive mare help!!!

NightMare Rider said:
is she scared or is she dominant?
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most definatley dominant. Not scared at all but seems deeply unhappy. Actually I've just been out to the stables to see her and she's breaking my heart. My gelding has come back from his schooling break tonight and he is in the next stable. They are in a barn and have 3/4 height walls so they can all touch and see each other. Well although he is top horse he is never vicious, just does enough to keep them in check and goes out of his way to protect the underdogs! But as I've just gone out to check her I found shes got a swollen eye so my guess is that she's gone for him in some way and he's had a go back over the stable wall. Although she was her usual snappy self, for one brief second she let me stroke her sore eye and laid her head on my shoulder before quickly trying to bite me again:rolleyes:
My plan now from all the tips you lovely people have given me is to firstly cut out all food (perhaps a handful of hi fi lite to put vits in?) She already gets adlib hay. I'm going to start lunging her tomorrow, does anyone know if ex racers are used to this? Hopefully my gelding might force her down the pecking order in the field. Then from there we'll see:)
 
!!!

just got an idea from sumit i wrote on someone elses problem wiv a horse that cow kicks...actually doing it that way might be dangerous for the horse...ok nw lol
 
evie's mummy said:
most definatley dominant. Not scared at all but seems deeply unhappy. Actually I've just been out to the stables to see her and she's breaking my heart. My gelding has come back from his schooling break tonight and he is in the next stable. They are in a barn and have 3/4 height walls so they can all touch and see each other. Well although he is top horse he is never vicious, just does enough to keep them in check and goes out of his way to protect the underdogs! But as I've just gone out to check her I found shes got a swollen eye so my guess is that she's gone for him in some way and he's had a go back over the stable wall. Although she was her usual snappy self, for one brief second she let me stroke her sore eye and laid her head on my shoulder before quickly trying to bite me again:rolleyes:
My plan now from all the tips you lovely people have given me is to firstly cut out all food (perhaps a handful of hi fi lite to put vits in?) She already gets adlib hay. I'm going to start lunging her tomorrow, does anyone know if ex racers are used to this? Hopefully my gelding might force her down the pecking order in the field. Then from there we'll see:)
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lol! bring a short whip with you whenever you go near her, then if she bites of kicks whack her shoulder with it and tie her up on a REALLY short rope in her stable and when she is calm groom her or something, until she realizes that it is good when you are near her. Then untie her and see what she does, if she attacks you again, start the WHOOOOLE process again, until she calms quickly, then eventually decides not to attack you- you might have to do this for quite a long time before it gets to the point where she doesnt attack you at all

when you are waiting for her to calm, do something else and simply keep checking on her. If she gets angry with you being there when you check on her, you might have to wait with her :-s
 
Please don't respond aggressively to the mare :)

There are several kinds of aggression that ethologists have identified in horses, and the most common kind we see (and create) is fear aggression. This results in the horse acting defensively, but we see them as angry and offensive. Their aim is to drive off what they see as a threat to their safety. Responding to this by chasing or hitting the horse is simply going to confirm to them that they were right to be scared and right to be aggressive.

You get to a horse acting this way by ignoring or punishing all the little signals by which a horse tells you they're afraid or unhappy - preventing them from moving away, preventing them from making bite or kick threats, preventing them from escalating these... all by not accustoming them slowly to being handled. It's just like humans - if you're consistently ignored when you express your discomfort quietly and politely, you will end up shouting aggressively :) I would imagine some racing yards are busy places without much time to work slowly with sensitive mares.
Your mare seems to have learned that people are a threat. The way to deal with it is with patient handling, using a lot of approach and retreat and letting her learn she is not trapped and does not need to attack. With a mare the way you describe, it sounds like a long process and probably one to consult someone with a professional behavioural qualification.

By the way, another type of aggression in horses is sexual aggression - and in mares you can see this more often when there is an ovarian tumour causing very high levels of testosterone to be released. The sort of behaviour you describe makes it sound as though a blood test would be worthwhile :)
 
capalldubh said:
Your mare seems to have learned that people are a threat. The way to deal with it is with patient handling, using a lot of approach and retreat and letting her learn she is not trapped and does not need to attack. With a mare the way you describe, it sounds like a long process and probably one to consult someone with a professional behavioural qualification.

:)
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capalldubh- I think you're right about not showing her aggression as it does seem to be perpetuating a vicious circle between us. How would i use the approach and retreat method for example when rugging her in the morning. Example this morning, get her out of stable tie her up have a nice neck rub, happy horse. Start doing up front of rug, happy horse give her a carrot. out of blue turns on me like devil and tears chunk from my arm, i aim kick at her shoulder she backs off momentarily then starts assault all over again. Also when you go into her field maybe to talk to another horse she actively seeks you out and circles like a shark. Its not that we've been in her space and misreading her signals, she seems to want to bring the fight on. This morning my foal was so distressed by mares behaviour she jumped out of field. As my husband went to help her mare cornered him in field shelter and the only way out was to lash out with lead rope. I am at my wits end. I have never sold a horse and have 13 here mostly rescue cases but I have to admit this is one horse that I would like to say goodbye to!!! I've never disliked any horse, always found something endearing despite dealing with quirks, but she is like nothing I've dealt with before. I feel bad as she wasn't this bad when she came and although i've treated her the same as all my horses I can't help thinking I'm doing something dreadfully wrong to make her so unhappy:confused:
 
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I can't help thinking I'm doing something dreadfully wrong to make her so unhappy
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I wouldn't think that at all - a lot of horses respond to abusive handling by shutting down all responses. So when she arrived, she was probably very shut-down and reserved (some horses direct aggression inwards at this point). Once the stress of the move wore off, she moved to responding with more outwardly directed behaviour, very scary for you, I think :(

I think you're right, it does end up in a sort of escalating cycle. I would definitely say - check hormone levels, but even so speak to someone like e.g. Ben Hart or possibly phone University of Lincoln, Danny Mills office might be able to give you names of qualified behaviourists. An aggression problem like you describe is outside the scope of NewRider, I think (although it sounds as though you're doing all the right things).

ETA have to head home now so no computer till morning, but will see if I can do a sort of behavioural modification programme for the rug that you could try and will PM :-)
 
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Thankyou, its so heart warming when you get total strangers who are going that extra mile to try and help you out. I really really appreciate all the trouble all of you have gone to :)
 
evie's mummy said:
Really? is it just the oil element, do you think then should I put her on alpha original or perhaps change to hi fi?
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personally I would keep off any oil at the moment. Our mare goes wappy on any oil and turns into a complete jekyll & hyde. Alpha A oil is one of the worst and I was told that by a reputable feed agent. If its just weight gain you want try high fibre non heating cubes. Don't use the weight gain feed - thats another one that can send them over the top. hope this helps:)
 
one other thing - it is hay she is on and not haylage as this can also have an adverse effect. Sorry to seem negative on all feeding but I think this is possibly the first step to cut anything out that may be changing her before starting any other methods :)
 
jo1 said:
personally I would keep off any oil at the moment. Our mare goes wappy on any oil and turns into a complete jekyll & hyde. Alpha A oil is one of the worst and I was told that by a reputable feed agent. If its just weight gain you want try high fibre non heating cubes. Don't use the weight gain feed - thats another one that can send them over the top. hope this helps:)
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Thanks for that. Today I've cut her feed back completely to just Hi Fi Lite with yeast sac to help with ulcers and have started her on a calmer (worked wonders with my gelding) She is on adlib hay. I'm just on my way out to the barn (keep her at home) going to brave a grooming session cos I think whe likes this and hopefully we can both benefit from a one on one and drop the aggression, fingers crossed;)
 
I think hay is the way to go at the moment.

We use alphaoil for everything plus a 'glug' of corn oil. RS horses who tend to be older (including a few TBs) have conditioning cubes, young TBs have coursemix (own label but made by Baileys) and older competition/hunting TB has releve as she doesn't tolerate anything else. All have been introduced gradually by trial and error!

As far as lunging most only understand 'charge around while held onto tightly' initially. Getting control of this and long reining are integral parts of our 'restarting'
 
ok lol

capalldubh said:
Please don't respond aggressively to the mare :)

There are several kinds of aggression that ethologists have identified in horses, and the most common kind we see (and create) is fear aggression. This results in the horse acting defensively, but we see them as angry and offensive. Their aim is to drive off what they see as a threat to their safety. Responding to this by chasing or hitting the horse is simply going to confirm to them that they were right to be scared and right to be aggressive.

You get to a horse acting this way by ignoring or punishing all the little signals by which a horse tells you they're afraid or unhappy - preventing them from moving away, preventing them from making bite or kick threats, preventing them from escalating these... all by not accustoming them slowly to being handled. It's just like humans - if you're consistently ignored when you express your discomfort quietly and politely, you will end up shouting aggressively :) I would imagine some racing yards are busy places without much time to work slowly with sensitive mares.
Your mare seems to have learned that people are a threat. The way to deal with it is with patient handling, using a lot of approach and retreat and letting her learn she is not trapped and does not need to attack. With a mare the way you describe, it sounds like a long process and probably one to consult someone with a professional behavioural qualification.

By the way, another type of aggression in horses is sexual aggression - and in mares you can see this more often when there is an ovarian tumour causing very high levels of testosterone to be released. The sort of behaviour you describe makes it sound as though a blood test would be worthwhile :)
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ok fine ** rite i guess lol- just couldn imagine anuva way if she still attacks when she has the choice to run away
 
do you know what? i've just had such a lovely moment with her I'm that chuffed. After reading all your comments I thought I've got to stop seeing this horse as the enemy. So I've just gone out to her and given her a grooming session. Started off by tying her up very loosely so she didn't feel threatened. Took her rug off SLOWLY, treating her like a foal. When I could see she was happy I started running my hand all over her, like a massage. My god she just collapsed like putty! loads of sighing, lip chewing and lowering her head. Occasionally I could feel areas of tension (under her belly) so i gently backed off so she didn't feel under pressure. There were moments when she pulled that evil face and came at me teeth flashing but I just stood there and done nothing and guess what? That completely took the wind from her sails! She landed lips on me then decided ok I'll just pretend I was kissing. Gave her a few carrots when she was particulary good but wary of her becoming nippy? Ended up with her on a really loose lead rein following me wherever I walked! unclipped lead rein and she just followed me to stable and put herself to bed! I'm sure this is just the start of a LONG journey but I hope that its the minutest beginning of a bond. That in conjuntion with changing feed and hormone testing should at least give us a fighting chance, do ya think?
 
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evie's mummy said:
... give us a fighting chance, do ya think?
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I DEFINATELY THINK SO!
YAY!!! Go you!!!: *does a little jiggle* D Maybe thats all she needed - a slower, and more confident approach!
Im also glad that you gave her a slack rope when you tied her up - I read somewhere (not sure if it were this thread or another), that someone suggested tying the horse up tight when it was naughty, and loosening it when the horse is good.....I dont think that would work - horses are all natural claustrophobics to varying degrees, and if the horse is stressed, then tying her up so she cant move isnt the best idea - will just encourage even great reactions from her, and possibly panic....she needs to feel safe and relaxed - not tied down! Anywho, glad it was a good time for you!:)

YAY! also glad that you stood your ground with the whole teeth baring thing - hooray! BTW, dunno if I mentioned this here, or in the "cow kick" thread, but if a horse threatens you, or actually gets you, then you can either stand your ground (like you did), or they say you have 3 seconds to retaliate before the horse either thinks you are beating it for no reason, or its too late and youve been hurt. If I think the horse isnt going to back down when i stand my ground during a "threat", and if I think it may retaliate to me smacking its nose when s/he bites, then I dont do it... instead, I make myself big and flap my arms, and stomp the ground and shout NO(just once, but all together), then it stuns them, and you generally find that they dont do it again incase they incurr an even greater and more scary reaction from you the next time :D
Please DONT do that though, if the horse is kicking/biting/bucking etc out of fear though! If the horse is behaving the way she is out of fear rather than out of dominance, then a much gentler approach is needed:D
If the horse is not scared, but just agressive due to "dominant" tendencies and is "testing" or "warning" you because it doesnt want to be told what to do by an "inferior", then it is a completely different scenario!
:D
 
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i have a nutty 3/4 tb who, until quite recenty, was on dengie alfa-a and alpha beet and spillers horse and pony cubes plus calmer. we contacted the spillers people and they suggested a minimum of a scoop of their slow response competetion cubes and a scoop of thhier conditioning fibre. its at most 9m/j per kilo and is just as conditioning as what she was on before. shes now going better and without calmer... a friend of mine was feeding the same cubes as you, but had porblems with breaks, leading and handling her mare as she became very boisterous and bargy and hyped up. maybe you should try a lower starch alternative feed? i know dengie alpha beet is specially formulated tto do what speedibeet does but without the fizz.
i would also try chasing her around uuntil she shows submissive sighns like mentioned above, or maybe try a bit of parelli? it seems to do the trick for many horses.
good luck x
 
my boy was very aggressive when i first bought him - he was horrid ! lashing back at him made it worse, and although alot of it looked like dominance, (herd leader) i think he found it very difficult to trust people, which makes me think something bad had happened to him along the lines.

Eventually, i stopped being scared of him, couldnt be bothered to react to his visciousness, spent quality time with him, gave him verbal warnings rather than slapping him across the muzzle, alot of aggressive behaviour you have described is the horse saying "i'm going to get them before they have a chance to get me first" or " she associates people with pain" horses like this need compassion and someone to understand them and show then that not all human are bad. i would keep her in a seperate paddock next to the others but not in with the herd, this worked really well with my lad, he relied on me and slowly by spending time with him i gained his trust and he was alot easire to deal with. im not saying let her push you around ,be confident, show her you are the boss, get her into a sturdy routine, make sure this routine includes grooming, start off small and build up to things, repetition is a great training aid with horses. If you are scared of her, which you have every right to be at the moment, she will draw on this and make it worse for you, i know its difficult but you really do need to act calm and confident around her, she will inturn draw on your confidence and trust you and your actions, all takes time though, and i understand every horse is different , just giving you my thoughts, :) took me a good two years to get my horse back on an even keal and he had so much to offer.
 
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evie's mummy said:
do you know what? i've just had such a lovely moment with her I'm that chuffed. After reading all your comments I thought I've got to stop seeing this horse as the enemy. So I've just gone out to her and given her a grooming session. Started off by tying her up very loosely so she didn't feel threatened. Took her rug off SLOWLY, treating her like a foal. When I could see she was happy I started running my hand all over her, like a massage. My god she just collapsed like putty! loads of sighing, lip chewing and lowering her head. Occasionally I could feel areas of tension (under her belly) so i gently backed off so she didn't feel under pressure. There were moments when she pulled that evil face and came at me teeth flashing but I just stood there and done nothing and guess what? That completely took the wind from her sails! She landed lips on me then decided ok I'll just pretend I was kissing. Gave her a few carrots when she was particulary good but wary of her becoming nippy? Ended up with her on a really loose lead rein following me wherever I walked! unclipped lead rein and she just followed me to stable and put herself to bed! I'm sure this is just the start of a LONG journey but I hope that its the minutest beginning of a bond. That in conjuntion with changing feed and hormone testing should at least give us a fighting chance, do ya think?
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thats what im talking about, love it, well done :);)
 
great advise re feeding i would just bulk up with lots of hay and grass with some kind chaff and high fiber cubes!

if she really gets to much to handle ,would seriously get a behvioralist in to work with her.


but i would SERIOUSLY concider her being in pain, like gastric ulcers especially as she has just come from race track. just have a little look on internet about it ,at the symtoms and she if she fits! well sometimes they dont have any and still have them!

good luck with her and be careful.
 
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Just to give you a little update. Vets been out to hormone profile, get results next week. My Vet has same opinion as me in that she's had a beating before. I really thought this was a dominant horse but the more i watch her I see she's just defensive. So now I don't let her get in a position where she feels threatened. Lots of slow gentle movements and one on one time. I don't think this horse has been treated as anything but a commodity during her short life and perhaps she doesn't know that humans are not always the enemy! Keeping her feed simple, lots of hay, hi fi lite with speedibeet and supplements in case of ulcers. She seems to be going down the pecking order in the field which seems to be a relief to her! Soooo after last weekend when I could have easily packed her off I'm finding her worming her way into my heart again! When they whinny to you it breaks your heart doesn't it:)Thanks for so much great advice, will keep you posted.
 
when i bought rebel she was in a bad way weight wise and also covered in rain scold, it has taken her ages to trust me to brush her and to put her rugs on and off, she still pulls faces but has never got me, i still struggle with how quick she is with her leg, when i go to pick up she is like jack flash they are up and down before i know it, and her back ones you need to grap and hold or they are firmly put back down, she is also quick to kick out but never enough to get you, i think when she harnessed race when she was younger something as been done to her legs or someone has done something to make her this way but we are getting there,

good news on you getting there with you mare, rebel likes nothing better than her face brushed she will let you doing anything with her after that,

keep us updated and ditto everyone elses comment on feed, my gelding goes loopy on oil
 
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