Anthropomorphism in horses
- Thread starter MrA
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Yes Ale - There are standards. I dont have time to get the details as am supposed to be doing work and OH is not well. But some years ago the government published a paper on equnes that were going to be incorpporated into agricultural standards - the box sizes for horses were definitely largert than on our London RS hacking yard. Though they kept several Shetlands and always passed BHS inspections.
I dont know the outcome but at another yard where the stables are historic in a listed building and cannot be altered, I noticed they now had child/pony liveries in the smaller spaces, whereas it used to be adults only.
On second thoughts it is somewhere on my computer, I think, so will do a search.
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I cant send you a pdf document Ale unless you p.m. me your email.
But it is called www.defra.gov.uk - Consultation for Code of Practise for the Welfare of Equines. November 2008.
You could google that.
I dont know what happened after that. I may have spent some time away from forums and missed it.
But it is called www.defra.gov.uk - Consultation for Code of Practise for the Welfare of Equines. November 2008.
You could google that.
I dont know what happened after that. I may have spent some time away from forums and missed it.
Stabling is a good example, however and this is the argument, you cannot say xx is bad and xy is good.
We have horses in the first place for us.
I can only go by my current lass. She was born in a stable and her early years were on a combined system. Eta it was a mare and foal box and off hand I don't know the sizing for them.
Her life now is out with her buddies, but with natural /man-made shelter.
But she will wander into any stable - (read that as anything with an open door!) because it's always been a safe secure place with food.
We have horses in the first place for us.
I can only go by my current lass. She was born in a stable and her early years were on a combined system. Eta it was a mare and foal box and off hand I don't know the sizing for them.
Her life now is out with her buddies, but with natural /man-made shelter.
But she will wander into any stable - (read that as anything with an open door!) because it's always been a safe secure place with food.
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So in my opinion this isn't putting human attributes onto her. But if you was looking at it as though you wanted her in for 15 hours a night so that she could sleep, well don't horses only sleep for 4 so what are they doing the rest of the time. Stabling was just the only example that had came into my head and I'm not saying I'm anti stabling, but I just think some possibly could be doing it for the wrong reasons, but maybe not as I have only Ale for reference.
You are right there, certainly no wrongs or rights especially coming from me as I'm learning all the time
Very interesting point, some horses are friendly and others are not. Where does this come from, could well be having foals and life experiences and genetics
Some horses are really poor doers, are they genetically geared towards calories or something else?
Ale = I can only tell you what Mark Rashid taught me. I dont understand the question about the something else. Animals juggle three genetic aims - to eat and drink, to survive predators and rivals, and natural dangers, and to procreate.
Horses (and humans) are geneticaly geared to maximise food input because horses that survived to pass on their genes were the ones which did not starve and lived to procreate. Rashid taught this so riders understood why their horses wanted to snack at any opportunaity and then he taught us how to manage that. I guess he was instilling tolerance and understanding in us riders.
But this genetic patterning hapened long ago - horses lived on poorer ground and might travel a long way each day to find food, and shift grazing grounds by season. One interesting thing is that the original extinct horses were supposed to have become extinct because they could not live in forests. While in Russia there are now horses specialised for forest life.
Horses are prey animals so genetically geared to flight, sometimes experienced as a spook (prelude to flight). In terms of herd dynamics he pointed out that a horse that continualy spooked and fled from imagined dangers woud be ejected from the herd. Because the herd could not afford to waste energy on false alarms.
The reason Rashid taught us this was so his audience mostly of female horseowners understood how the horse's brain worked. That horses were not being naughty, or spiteful or kind nor any of the human words used by owners. They were pre programed in many ways to behave as they do.
Humans can modify this behaviour.
But that modification through learning has to allow for the horse's brain taking longer to process information than a human brain.
I found the teaching of Rashid helped me to ride better, solve problems with horses and teach the horses I rode what I wanted them to do for me. But it was not geared to your exam syllabus.
One of his main threads was that horses are just horses. They are not human beings.
Horses eat for 18 hours as they are grazers.
The ponies eat anything, the horses don't. They walk on.
Mine is out with poor doers and she's certainly not.
She's programed to find a stallion, however not ALL mares want to reproduce. We the human select and make that choice for them. Natural selection happens in the wild and if a stallion were to run with our mares, he would cover the strongest as there would be a pecking order. Just because mine would stand doesn't mean the herd will let her get a look in!!
The ponies eat anything, the horses don't. They walk on.
Mine is out with poor doers and she's certainly not.
She's programed to find a stallion, however not ALL mares want to reproduce. We the human select and make that choice for them. Natural selection happens in the wild and if a stallion were to run with our mares, he would cover the strongest as there would be a pecking order. Just because mine would stand doesn't mean the herd will let her get a look in!!
@Skib much as I've found the Mark Rashid books I've read to be interesting I do think he over simplifies some things. Now maybe this is to get across to people that horses are horses, not four legged humans, but in doing so I think he can lead people to under estimate them and that can cause problems if they then have to deal with sharper or more challenging horses where thinking outside the box can be useful. That's not to say I don't think he has a lot of useful things to say, and I find his style of writing very readable and easy to relate to. For anyone interested in some easy reading I'd certainly recommend his early books, I haven't read the later ones so can't comment on them.
@Ale I don't think poor doers are necessarily not geared towards calories but would suggest we've bred away from the survival of the fittest - ie who can cope on least - in preference of other traits. Consequently these horses may just need a lot more calories to support their metabolism and the demands placed on it, but since the gut is no bigger that means they need more energy dense feeds. On modern grazing and management that may be no bad thing!
Mine has become much friendlier - and far more of a diva - since we lost the horse I'd bought him as a companion for. He'd spent the first 12 years of his life perfectly happy to be around people but seldom seeking them out or demanding their presence unless he wanted something. That's certainly changed! And it's not as though the availability of treats or feed has altered, or that he doesn't have horse company, just that he isn't playing second fiddle to a high status horse who overpowered him (and almost every horse he came in contact with) and he never dared challenge.
@Ale I don't think poor doers are necessarily not geared towards calories but would suggest we've bred away from the survival of the fittest - ie who can cope on least - in preference of other traits. Consequently these horses may just need a lot more calories to support their metabolism and the demands placed on it, but since the gut is no bigger that means they need more energy dense feeds. On modern grazing and management that may be no bad thing!
Mine has become much friendlier - and far more of a diva - since we lost the horse I'd bought him as a companion for. He'd spent the first 12 years of his life perfectly happy to be around people but seldom seeking them out or demanding their presence unless he wanted something. That's certainly changed! And it's not as though the availability of treats or feed has altered, or that he doesn't have horse company, just that he isn't playing second fiddle to a high status horse who overpowered him (and almost every horse he came in contact with) and he never dared challenge.
Thinking for yourself and outside the box is essential I would have thought with horses.
When it came to backing J it was clear we were struggling, he just didn't get it. So I ended up turning him away and I discovered Ken Falkner and on the side pnh. I spent four years having lessons, attending clinics, going to demos, reading books, watching dvds, doing the online courses. I organised a demo with my trainer, crewed up with them and began doing a bit of teaching myself.
All of that means absolutely nothing to the cob. Carrots go in my bucket, that stick of yours, you can stick up your.
There is always going to be a horse that comes along that has written the book you haven't read!
When it came to backing J it was clear we were struggling, he just didn't get it. So I ended up turning him away and I discovered Ken Falkner and on the side pnh. I spent four years having lessons, attending clinics, going to demos, reading books, watching dvds, doing the online courses. I organised a demo with my trainer, crewed up with them and began doing a bit of teaching myself.
All of that means absolutely nothing to the cob. Carrots go in my bucket, that stick of yours, you can stick up your.
There is always going to be a horse that comes along that has written the book you haven't read!
Relating to your stabling comment @Ale, Indie's breeder 'warned' me that he will non-stop pace the fence line as soon as it starts raining because he 'doesn't like' the rain and 'wants' to be in a stable. Tough titties with me, I don't have any stables, but at a pinch could have put him in the barn if he really carried on but he has not once fussed about the weather. I would guess he was more institutionalized than disliking/liking anything in particular. I do also think there is a lot that can be wrong if people over anthropomorphise, over rugging (because the human is cold having come out of a centrally heated house), over feeding (so many people give bucket feeds because we want to/believe they need a 'meal' not because the horse actually needs it), shut in stables 23/7, jumped until they break, raced until they break, often in the name of he/she likes/wants it.
@Jessey it can work badly both ways though. I've seen the young healthy horses in full neck heavyweight runs on dry days when it's 10c and fed so much hard feed they're out of their skulls all because the owner has put a fleece on and feels good feeding a proper meal, but at the other end I've seen horses in a dreadful state from being kept "naturally" and concerns dismissed as "they're horses". I guess, as with everything, it comes down to common sense, sand it maybe doesn't help that so many horses are willing to accommodate us without loud complaint.
Oh yes I totally agree, you've got to find the balance. It was just in response to the how can it be a bad thing comment
I have not read all Rashid's books. I learned how to back up from his description of how he himself learned. That is about all.
No, I learned to ride from spectating his clinics, year after year. Rashid does simplify at the clinics in order to teach. Sometimes a well intended simplification becomes a problem for someone like me and he gives it up. He always answers questions from spectators.
My view is that thinking outside the box is what he is all about.
Horses are problem solving. I like that. People bring problem horses to clinics. Some are sharp. It is the same with any good trainer - Michael Peace or Maxwell as the UK trainers I have watched and read. Learning from a good trainer helps one to think. Both inside and outside the box.
I would be interested to know carthorse the names of the trainers and instructors who shaped the way you ride? And would recommend me to watch.
Because one thing is sure we all learned from someone. And I had to learn from the people who were available to me as a 60 year old with no horse of her own and limited money. I also had prejudices - I read Edward Miller on the way he kept polo horses for instance. That predisposed me to turn out. And as we have no turn out I didnt buy a horse. London horses kept in stables have and need hours of work each day.
yes you can they sell them in my local tack shopI remember milk gums! You can't get them now I don't think.
@Skib so much of my learning came from old fashioned horsemen with a wealth of knowledge, I just wish I'd been older so I could have taken in more of it. When I was very young there was a very old gentleman nearby who bred Shires and was happy for me to "help" with them though I'm sure the reality was I was an utter nuisance. I'll always remember being allowed to bring in his stallions, though considering this tiny gentleman could bring in all three together, have them stand until he was ready to deal with then and then tell each one where to go I was clearly not doing anything and was probably being kept out of trouble by the horse! But even that young he taught me how to be calm and steady around them, to always let them know where I was by voice and touch, that control starts with self-control, that reward is at least as important as correction. |it gave me a good foundation for everything, because when those horses used to be your living you had to be able to trust and be trusted. My basic riding lessons were at a village BHS stables& livery yard and I also used to work there at weekends in the hope of an extra ride. We were taught correct BHS ways of handling and got involved in everything - brood mares, youngstock, hunters, showjumpers and stallion inspections. I'd also groom for an instructor that evented an earn pocket money plaiting, though with hindsight I should have got danger money for broodmares with large foals at foot that though knocking the human off the step stool was funny! And again I was lucky enough to get a different grounding at a British Legion home we used to ride past because in the summer the ex-Cavalry residents used to love the chance to drill us on the big front lawn and teach us horsemanship they'd learned. On top of that I've ridden for many years, produced two of my own from 2yos, ridden and handled many so called problem horses for people an groomed for an Inter II dressage rider as well as ride some of her youngsters. Not to mention attending clinics and being lucky enough to get involved in Kelly Marks working with a friend's horse. But my greatest teachers of all have been the horses and that tiny old gentleman who taught me the absolute foundations of being around horses,
Interestingly remembering that gentleman, he would always refer to his horses as a group as "children", names being for when he was talking to just one in a group. Even young I could see how devoted to them he was and @Ale maybe your lecturer would have read a lot into his choice of words. One year he bred a stunning colt foal that was the product of several generations of planning, but before it was very old he had doubts about it's temperament despite it's superb conformation. He handled him, worked with him and watched and watched him. Decided as a 2yo his temperament made him unsuitable as a stallion so gelded him and continued to work with him, but as he got older the temperament didn't improve, the horse got more assertive and at a still young age he had him pts on the grounds that a horse of that size and bulk cannot have a temperament bordering on nasty and need constant watching. At the time I didn't understand, years later I did and I know that he made the right decision since he was too of to guarantee that horse a home for life where he'd never ccome into contact with other people. Loving horses, even viewing them as family, doesn't mean we can't be realists, and much as I loved Jim I think I'd probably have had him pts rather than passed him on and for a similar reason.
Dear Lord I ramble on, congratulations to anyone who managed to plough through that without losing the will to live!
Interestingly remembering that gentleman, he would always refer to his horses as a group as "children", names being for when he was talking to just one in a group. Even young I could see how devoted to them he was and @Ale maybe your lecturer would have read a lot into his choice of words. One year he bred a stunning colt foal that was the product of several generations of planning, but before it was very old he had doubts about it's temperament despite it's superb conformation. He handled him, worked with him and watched and watched him. Decided as a 2yo his temperament made him unsuitable as a stallion so gelded him and continued to work with him, but as he got older the temperament didn't improve, the horse got more assertive and at a still young age he had him pts on the grounds that a horse of that size and bulk cannot have a temperament bordering on nasty and need constant watching. At the time I didn't understand, years later I did and I know that he made the right decision since he was too of to guarantee that horse a home for life where he'd never ccome into contact with other people. Loving horses, even viewing them as family, doesn't mean we can't be realists, and much as I loved Jim I think I'd probably have had him pts rather than passed him on and for a similar reason.
Dear Lord I ramble on, congratulations to anyone who managed to plough through that without losing the will to live!
Not actually looked, but I know a shop that sells the chocolate with the mint cream middle. Three types of it. That's an old favourite of some people's.
I read it and I am still living.
I love the comment "control starts with self control"
If we cannot control our own behaviour, emotion and way of being, why should the horse listen to us.
I am about to start reading the Tao of Pooh, I think it's meant to be about mindfulness. Just being in the here and now. Quietening the crap inside or heads for one!
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