A
Be nice halter
- Thread starter Clava
- Start date
I would just add that you are actually talking about two completely different types of equipment with completely different actions. It's not really a case of one being more "severe" - they are based on totally different principles.
Pressure halters (Be Nice, Dually etc.) close on the horse's head when it pulls against you, thereby punishing the wrong behaviour with a pressure greater than the horse exerted into the halter. The horse learns not to run into this pressure, and therefore yields.
A rope halter has no closing action. If the horse pulls against it, it will get its own pressure back - so not really a punishment - more a consequence. The rope is thinner than a conventional halter, so it exerts a more concentrated pressure if the horse leans on it.
However, the real point of the rope halter, when used well, is not to prevent or punish the wrong behaviour, but rather to give clear signals about the right behaviour. A good quality rope halter has weight, and therefore a gentle but clear movement on the face as you move the rope. The horse then learns to respond to ever lighter signals. As you get better at using it, you find you can get a lot of refinement with the signals you give, and a of differentiation by just small movements in the rope. I won't say you can't do that with a pressure halter, but it's a lot more difficult. (A bit like doing embroidery in boxing gloves!) As the "Be Nice" name suggests, it's designed more with preventing undesirable behaviour in mind, while the rope halter has more emphasis on refined communication.
I use a rope halter for everything, and I agree with Ameliet that pressure halters can cause more problems than they solve - especially with claustrophobic horses. However, I also agree with AengusOg that the real key is in HOW you use it -whichever you choose. The equipment won't change anything unless the person is prepared to change.
Pressure halters (Be Nice, Dually etc.) close on the horse's head when it pulls against you, thereby punishing the wrong behaviour with a pressure greater than the horse exerted into the halter. The horse learns not to run into this pressure, and therefore yields.
A rope halter has no closing action. If the horse pulls against it, it will get its own pressure back - so not really a punishment - more a consequence. The rope is thinner than a conventional halter, so it exerts a more concentrated pressure if the horse leans on it.
However, the real point of the rope halter, when used well, is not to prevent or punish the wrong behaviour, but rather to give clear signals about the right behaviour. A good quality rope halter has weight, and therefore a gentle but clear movement on the face as you move the rope. The horse then learns to respond to ever lighter signals. As you get better at using it, you find you can get a lot of refinement with the signals you give, and a of differentiation by just small movements in the rope. I won't say you can't do that with a pressure halter, but it's a lot more difficult. (A bit like doing embroidery in boxing gloves!) As the "Be Nice" name suggests, it's designed more with preventing undesirable behaviour in mind, while the rope halter has more emphasis on refined communication.
I use a rope halter for everything, and I agree with Ameliet that pressure halters can cause more problems than they solve - especially with claustrophobic horses. However, I also agree with AengusOg that the real key is in HOW you use it -whichever you choose. The equipment won't change anything unless the person is prepared to change.
I have been using one of the rope halters described, and its use was demonstrated to me by an NH teacher so that I knew what I was trying to do. Its been brilliant for encouraging responsive behaviour with increasingly subtle signals. Really impressed with them so far.
,,,
Wise informative words here. My guy was headshy,headstrong, bolshy and arrigant, and most scary trying to lead in from the field. Now, he is a kitten cat, lowers his head when asked to put bridle/haltie on, and no Kevin behaviour whatsoever. It is the best couple of pounds i have ever spent. Oh, and i dont need to use it anymore really.............
but still looks good!!!
google get knotted halties and you will find site, saves you loads on dually and the like which are way too expensive
Good luk, and you dont need to spend loads of money to get this sorted, trust me
Wise informative words here. My guy was headshy,headstrong, bolshy and arrigant, and most scary trying to lead in from the field. Now, he is a kitten cat, lowers his head when asked to put bridle/haltie on, and no Kevin behaviour whatsoever. It is the best couple of pounds i have ever spent. Oh, and i dont need to use it anymore really.............
but still looks good!!!google get knotted halties and you will find site, saves you loads on dually and the like which are way too expensive
Good luk, and you dont need to spend loads of money to get this sorted, trust me
Lodge Ropes do excellent quality at reasonable prices. Don't go too cheap - poor quality rope is either too hard or too light, and doesn't have the right feel.
http://www.freewebs.com/lodgeropes/ropehalters.htm
http://www.freewebs.com/lodgeropes/ropehalters.htm
A
AengusOg
Guest
I can assure you that, despite your 'scientific' take on the Be-Nice halter, that I certainly do not, and never have, use(d) one to punish any horse!
If you could see how I manage horses in one, and witness the reactions of the owner/handlers who had previously believed that their horses were out of control and beyond retrieval, I think you may think differently.
I can't make sense of your theory of punishing "the wrong behaviour with a pressure greater than the horse exerted into the halter"
The simple 'formula' for proper use of the Be-Nice halter is..... horse and human don't pull at the same time........if the horse is pulling, the handler should be giving, using 'half halt' type checks on the rope to encourage the horse to desist (hence my recommendation for use of a long rope) and, when the horse stops pulling, the handler can begin persuading the horse to yield to gentle, subtle pressure, giving instant reward for understanding/compliance.
And as for (with reference to the rope halter) "The rope is thinner".........."so it exerts a more concentrated pressure if the horse leans into it"...........can you not see that that would possibly be more damaging in the wrong hands?
You say (of the rope halter)...."As you get better at using it, you find you can get a lot of refinement with the signals you give".........do you think that's impossible with a Be-Nice halter?
May I remind you that I am called upon to help all sorts of horses (and people), sometimes with the recommendation of vets and farriers (and former clients), and that I've never had negative feedback from any client, in all the time I've been practicing.........despite (or possibly because of) the fact that I have no scientific teaching.
I am a professional horseman, and I resent the inference that I would use a tool of punishment in my work.
It seems that every time I attempt to educate people on the correct use of the Be-Nice halter, someone with inadequate experience of it will shoot me down in flames.
In the interests of my own sanity I have decided to keep my mouth firmly shut on the subject from this point on.
Seeing is believing.
ETA I do, of course, recognise your right to express your views.
Last edited by a moderator:
What I find interesting about Be Nice, Dually's and the other closing pressure halters is why anyone needs to use them at all. There are so many trainers (professionals 
), who never use anything more than a simple knotted rope halter or headcollar, and they do fine with any horse they encounter. My reservation about the Dually is that they don't seem to release instantly, and the Be Nice would be the metal studs - but in both cases I just don't see any reason for using a piece of equipment that squeezes on the head at all.
Aengusog, I don't think you should get quite so wound up about this. On here you are just an anon interenet poster, you may be a "professional", but really nobody on here has any reason to remember that.
Clava, the point is, if you are going to choose to apply any particular branch of NH, then get the tools those trainers use. If it's Parelli etc then don't buy a pressure halter because the system isn't designed to use on. On a Parelli clinic they would ask you to take a pressure halter off. If you are going the Monty route, then the tool would be the Dually. If you find a trainer that uses a Be Nice... etc etc. Have fun.
), who never use anything more than a simple knotted rope halter or headcollar, and they do fine with any horse they encounter. My reservation about the Dually is that they don't seem to release instantly, and the Be Nice would be the metal studs - but in both cases I just don't see any reason for using a piece of equipment that squeezes on the head at all.Aengusog, I don't think you should get quite so wound up about this. On here you are just an anon interenet poster, you may be a "professional", but really nobody on here has any reason to remember that.
Clava, the point is, if you are going to choose to apply any particular branch of NH, then get the tools those trainers use. If it's Parelli etc then don't buy a pressure halter because the system isn't designed to use on. On a Parelli clinic they would ask you to take a pressure halter off. If you are going the Monty route, then the tool would be the Dually. If you find a trainer that uses a Be Nice... etc etc. Have fun.
Last edited:
I am sorry CF and Kate, I understand your point of view. I have only so far used rope-halter.
BUT if you are a horse -pro like AengusOg, you may encounter horses with extreme behaviour.
I think there is a difference between a part-time horse-trainer, and a FULL-time horse trainer.
My point is that your experience might be not as wide as an horse-pro. I am sure you have lots of experience!
I think we should be a bit more tolerant. Clava asked about "be-nice-halter", I think she got LOTS of infos from people using "be-nice-halter" and rope-halter.
Sometime we get wrapped in our own beliefs that we do not allow more space for others people beliefs.
So be nice so be cool.
BUT if you are a horse -pro like AengusOg, you may encounter horses with extreme behaviour.
I think there is a difference between a part-time horse-trainer, and a FULL-time horse trainer.
My point is that your experience might be not as wide as an horse-pro. I am sure you have lots of experience!
I think we should be a bit more tolerant. Clava asked about "be-nice-halter", I think she got LOTS of infos from people using "be-nice-halter" and rope-halter.
Sometime we get wrapped in our own beliefs that we do not allow more space for others people beliefs.
So be nice so be cool.
Yes, I've learnt LOTS and I'm grateful to you all for expressing your experience and advice. I'm still unsure which to go for - ideally I'd like to borrow one of each and try them out to see if I'm comfortable with them and more to the point how Belle reacts. There is so much choice - 6mm, 8mm and 10mm halters, the Be nice, and the Dually.....still thinking, but the one good thing is I'm getting really interested in NH and want to explore it further.
Aengus0g - please don't go away, I , for one really value your comments especially as you are coming from a position of vast experience. Your sort of input is exactly what is required. People are very quick to jump on others views and can be insensitive when doing so (I've been called brutal and cruel for following the vets instructions to scub scabs off mud fever!) and really you just have to agree to differ. A forum is all about different views.
Aengus0g - please don't go away, I , for one really value your comments especially as you are coming from a position of vast experience. Your sort of input is exactly what is required. People are very quick to jump on others views and can be insensitive when doing so (I've been called brutal and cruel for following the vets instructions to scub scabs off mud fever!) and really you just have to agree to differ. A forum is all about different views.
Last edited:
Me too. Although I do have a little scientific background and some formal training - however no one cares about that when you're solving the problem, do they - it's what you do that counts, isn't it?!
Anyway - I'm certainly not going to get into a squabble about credentials and qualifications! 
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough when I said "However, I also agree with AengusOg that the real key is in HOW you use it -whichever you choose. The equipment won't change anything unless the person is prepared to change."
I was saying that I respect your choice of the Be Nice, and I'm sure you use it well. I was not shooting you down in flames, but rather acknowledging your skill.
So - you prefer the Be Nice, and am sure can justify that from your experience, I prefer the rope halter and can justify that from my experience - what do you say, lead ropes at dawn?
I'm not saying I am a professional, but what I have done is spend a lot of time around the professionals, watching them day in and day out working with all sorts of horses. I can say hand on heart that the people I choose to learn from never use closing pressure halters (or dummy riders, or buckstoppers, or lots of other stuff). I'm not saying it is wrong to do so, I am just saying that I don't think it's necessary - even if you are a professional dealing with troubled and difficult horses.
But Clava, again my advice to you is to use the tools that your trainers use. So if you are going to work through Kelly Marks Perfect Manners, use a headcollar and a Dually only if you think your horse needs that bit more. If you are going to work through some Parelli, Ken Faulkner or Silversand type training, use a rope halter. Etc etc...
You started off by saying that you'd like to do some ground work to improve your relationship with your horse (including, leading, tethering...not being walked on etc). That sounds like it will be great fun, and if you let us know where you are going to get the ideas for what you are going to do, I'm sure someone will be able to tell you what equipment matches.I can't think of any training DVD's or books that are easily available that will show you exercises using a Be Nice, but there may be some and I'm sure someone will be able to advise which they are.
p.s. How do you know what anyone's experience is? How can you judge experience to be inadequate when you don't know how much experience there is in the first place?
Last edited:
OK, I didn't really want to get into a fixed training system....I was perhaps foolishly wanting to learn about lots of the methods and work with those aspects that made sense and were helpful to me. Now I'm sure this is opening another tin of worms as there will be many of you saying I need to stick to one thing or another, but I feel that many of them have good and useful parts which relate to what I have learnt from horses over the years. Anyway, I've admitted to just starting so these are the books I'm currently reading " Perfect Manners" KM and "Understanding Your Horse" Lesley Bayley and Robert Maxwell.So the Dually and Be nice have been mentioned (one in each book) which is why I raised the question as to what they were about and what advice you could give. (I wasn't trying to be provocative..)
Cf has a really good point about choosing one method and using the tools coming with the method.
I do not know how you learn but really you ought to watch a trainer or trainers with different method then choose a method and then read the books.
I started with john Lyons, I read his book, I joined his forum than when I had the oprotunity I did a stage with one of his trainers.
For Parelli, I read teh books, watche dthe DVDs, fiddled alone, worked with one of his trainers. now I wished I worked with the trainer sooner.
So really to make up your mind, just go out to audit clinics. You are so lucky, you have many trainers and many many clinics to go to in the UK.
From "tasting" different methods, I love the r-p work of John Lyons and the ground-work/psychology of Parelli. For teh riding, I woudl love to train with Philippe Karl trainers, again I assisted at their courses.
Whatever they try to make you believe for marketing reason, Horsemanship is not learnt from books.
It is hands-on experience!
C-F . Just out-of-curiosity, the trainers you mainly watch, were they female or male? I am just mulling over something, but I will start another thread
I do not know how you learn but really you ought to watch a trainer or trainers with different method then choose a method and then read the books.
I started with john Lyons, I read his book, I joined his forum than when I had the oprotunity I did a stage with one of his trainers.
For Parelli, I read teh books, watche dthe DVDs, fiddled alone, worked with one of his trainers. now I wished I worked with the trainer sooner.
So really to make up your mind, just go out to audit clinics. You are so lucky, you have many trainers and many many clinics to go to in the UK.
From "tasting" different methods, I love the r-p work of John Lyons and the ground-work/psychology of Parelli. For teh riding, I woudl love to train with Philippe Karl trainers, again I assisted at their courses.
Whatever they try to make you believe for marketing reason, Horsemanship is not learnt from books.
It is hands-on experience!
C-F . Just out-of-curiosity, the trainers you mainly watch, were they female or male? I am just mulling over something, but I will start another thread
Of course horsemanship is not learnt from books! but methods can be described in books and the theory behind methods and how I put them into practice is where "horsemanship can be learnt - I knew it would be a tin of worms to mention any particular books. I may one day go to some demos and meet trainers, but at the moment I'm exploring this field and wish to develop a few aspects of it which I think will be helpful to me and my horses. The advice I've had concerning the different halters has been fascinating and incredibly helpful, but I want to take this journey slowly, there's lots to learn and I thought a halter might be a good starting place.
Last edited:
It is not another can of worms
If I understood well, you are already horse person.
One thing about NH is that they target the adult completely horse beginner, their maketing approach is often: "buy my book and DVd and it will be allright ... "
I, myself, am very academic in my learning. I have to have read the book and watch the DVD to get it !
That is why I am on the cloud nine with Parelli Savvy Club "feeding me" well sending me a DVD or review every month ...
On this forum there are quite few experts of Nh who are very happy to share their experience. It is a good place to start.BTW, I am not one of these experts
If I understood well, you are already horse person.
One thing about NH is that they target the adult completely horse beginner, their maketing approach is often: "buy my book and DVd and it will be allright ... "
I, myself, am very academic in my learning. I have to have read the book and watch the DVD
to get it ! That is why I am on the cloud nine with Parelli Savvy Club "feeding me" well sending me a DVD or review every month ...
On this forum there are quite few experts of Nh who are very happy to share their experience. It is a good place to start.BTW, I am not one of these experts
It is not another can of worms
If I understood well, you are already horse person.
One thing about NH is that they target the adult completely horse beginner, their maketing approach is often: "buy my book and DVd and it will be allright ... "
I, myself, am very academic in my learning. I have to have read the book and watch the DVD
That is why I am on the cloud nine with Parelli Savvy Club "feeding me" well sending me a DVD or review every month ...
On this forum there are quite few experts of Nh who are very happy to share their experience. It is a good place to start.BTW, I am not one of these experts
Fair enough...I too love the academic research (read every book there was on childbirth before my first baby, but at the end of the day the real experience is the thing!!!
). I've just started the reading / finding out process...and it's very interesting.When I worked for Parelli on their trade stands we used to get swamped after the demo had happened, with people saying "How do I get started?!".
The answer we had to give then was "You need the knowledge and the tools" Then you would wave one hand at the boxes with the levels in, followed by a wave at the equipment and say "This is the knowledge.. and these are the tools".
I was just curious as to where you were going to get your initial ideas for your groundwork from, as you might find something to watch or read would help. I'll give you a handy tip - if you look on EBay you can often get the old Silversand "Basic Skills" 3 video pack for a very cheap price (like under a tenner incl p+p). I would recommend that as something to get the ideas flowing, but it's just an idea. They are very much home-produced and not at all flashy, but people seem to enjoy them. Or if you're more interested in the Intelligent Horsemanship sort of stuff, the book Perfect Manners is really handy and again can be quite reasonable via EBay.
p.s. If you do go for those videos, make sure the seller includes the A4 booklet of notes that goes with them!
The answer we had to give then was "You need the knowledge and the tools" Then you would wave one hand at the boxes with the levels in, followed by a wave at the equipment and say "This is the knowledge.. and these are the tools".
I was just curious as to where you were going to get your initial ideas for your groundwork from, as you might find something to watch or read would help. I'll give you a handy tip - if you look on EBay you can often get the old Silversand "Basic Skills" 3 video pack for a very cheap price (like under a tenner incl p+p). I would recommend that as something to get the ideas flowing, but it's just an idea. They are very much home-produced and not at all flashy, but people seem to enjoy them.
Or if you're more interested in the Intelligent Horsemanship sort of stuff, the book Perfect Manners is really handy and again can be quite reasonable via EBay.p.s. If you do go for those videos, make sure the seller includes the A4 booklet of notes that goes with them!
You're going to have a great time.
One thing that might or might no be useful... if I recollect correctly the first "yield" in Perfect Manners is a backup. I have found that backup comes easier and softer if you get the hindquarter and forequarter yields first. Just my experience anyway, so many horses seem to get braced when first asked for backup.
(I think I mentioned this to Kelly once on her forum and she seemed to think it might be a useful thought).
One thing that might or might no be useful... if I recollect correctly the first "yield" in Perfect Manners is a backup. I have found that backup comes easier and softer if you get the hindquarter and forequarter yields first. Just my experience anyway, so many horses seem to get braced when first asked for backup.
(I think I mentioned this to Kelly once on her forum and she seemed to think it might be a useful thought).
newrider.com