Be nice halter

[Clava]

You're going to have a great time.
One thing that might or might no be useful... if I recollect correctly the first "yield" in Perfect Manners is a backup. I have found that backup comes easier and softer if you get the hindquarter and forequarter yields first. Just my experience anyway, so many horses seem to get braced when first asked for backup.
(I think I mentioned this to Kelly once on her forum and she seemed to think it might be a useful thought).

Lateral movement and backing are going well, our last go in the field she backed up as I stepped towards her, I was pleased.

 

[ameliet1971]

Apologies for going slightly OT but I've only just logged back on and want to quickly reply to this quote:

..The simple 'formula' for proper use of the Be-Nice halter is..... horse and human don't pull at the same time........if the horse is pulling, the handler should be giving, using 'half halt' type checks on the rope to encourage the horse to desist (hence my recommendation for use of a long rope)...

AengusOG
This emphasises the reasoning behind why the BN is not a suitable training halter for a claustrophobic horse. The ‘half halt’ checks would cause the mechanism of the halter to close around the head and no matter how subtly performed; this would trigger a panic attack in any horse suffering with this phobia.

I have no problem with your attempt to educate people on how to use the BN correctly, what I do object to is your constant misleading suggestion that it’s a suitable tool to use on any horse.

My employer is a highly respected horse trainer, who far from being inadequate, regularly uses the BN on horses with various behaviour problems and usually achieves excellent results. The one exception being the claustrophobic horse bought in for re-schooling who had a panic attack the moment the slightest pressure was applied. On that occasion, the horse was fitted with a knotted halter and the panic attacks ceased.

I don’t know you, so I’m not in a position to comment on your actual knowledge of problem horses or hands on experience using the BN. However, maybe the reason why you haven’t experienced any problems with the halter is because you haven’t yet had experience of working with an exceptionally claustrophobic horse.

 

[Kate F.]

I have found that backup comes easier and softer if you get the hindquarter and forequarter yields first. Just my experience anyway, so many horses seem to get braced when first asked for backup.

That's interesting! We used to start with back-up too - about 10 years ago - and I just did it because that was how I learned it. Then one year Richard came over here and had changed the order of the exercises and started with getting and directing the attention. I asked why - and he said he'd changed it by accident one day for some circumstances, and found there was much less resitance on things like the back-up and forehand yield if you started with the attention. Over several clinics and dozens of horses that did seem to be the case. Then we refined it to working with the eyes - and it all got lighter still. That's not to say there's never resistance - but on average it's less common and much less agressive.

Then Richard worked with Ray Hunt a bit more, and they started experimenting with the mental picture the person starts with. That seems to be really important too. They were working with specific reference to trailer training - "put the mind in, and the horse goes too" - picture it, put the horse's attention in there - and it happens. More often than not, that works, and you don't get the conflicts you get with always asking the feet to move. Move the mind, then the feet.

I now usually start with getting people aware of the horse's attention, then attracting it, then directing it, followed by forehand yield, hindquarters yield, then back up. That seems to work best for people starting off - though with a problem horse I'm working myself, I sometimes do just a little on the attention then go to forehand yield and get that back-and-away step working on both sides, and get big changes in attitude very quickly. I think many people when they are first starting out are so used to backing off the horse it's difficult for them to get the forehand yield straight off and it works more easily via the attention - but I think you're right - the forehand yield in particular is a real "biggy" in horse terms - and once you get that, everything else falls into place much more easily!

Lili and Morgan, sorry, but I don't thing a horse had any idea what an income is, let alone where it comes from or how it is divided up between different jobs. How on earth can it make any difference to the horse whether you are full time or part time professional? For the full time person there might be a bit more pressure on getting impressive results faster, because your livelihood depends on it - but as we've discussed in other contexts, this might not always be a good thing from the horse's point of view. Whatever proportion of your time you spend on it, if someone is paying for your skills and advice, anyone with integrity is going to do the best they can to give the best service they can - which I certainly do, and I'm sure AengusOg does too. I don't think the derivation of income, or proportion from different sources, has anything to do with it. I know a few "full time professionals" I wouldn't let near any of my horses, and some "total amateurs" who never charge for anything (even though they really should!), who I am happy to work with anytime. I really believe it's about dedication and attitude, not hours charged.

 

[Chilli]

Ask 10 people the same question and you can get 10 different answers, it’s a shame it’s usually talk on the forum, you see very few of the “Professional” and experienced amateurs prepared to show themselves riding or working horses so inexperienced people can make their own minds up as the relevance of what they are saying, especially as some of the things advice is offered on can be potentially dangerous or cause more problems for the horse or handler/rider.

Being a professional has no more bearing on ability than the number of years involved with a profession, if they did all saddle fitters would be excellent and the most skilled people would always be the oldest.

 

[Chilli]

Then Richard worked with Ray Hunt a bit more, and they started experimenting with the mental picture the person starts with. That seems to be really important too. They were working with specific reference to trailer training - "put the mind in, and the horse goes too" - picture it, put the horse's attention in there - and it happens. More often than not, that works, and you don't get the conflicts you get with always asking the feet to move. Move the mind, then the feet.

I wonder where Ray got that from? Tom Dorrance 30-40 years ago perhaps? Judging by Tom’s recommended reading and Dominique Barbier it’s been around for hundreds of years in the mainstream now considered classical arena.

Although interesting how popular visualisation has become recently with some trainers.

 

[Crystal Fire]

Well, I've put my photos up, and my one precious video - that took me 3 days to edit LOL!
Kate - forequarter yield. In Parelli we were taught to take the noseband of the halter in the leading hand, then support with pressure on the shoulder, standing by the shoulder. A lot of horses got quite narked about the fingers holding the halter. So I start people and horse off now by standing beside the horse and making sure that they can hold the halter lightly without the horse shaking them about. Then they stand in front, and we practise swinging the balance from side to side from the fingers on the halter, then we go for the FQ yield. Again, it seems to deal with a lot of the bracing before it happens.
P.S. I don't bother getting a lot of stuff together to post up and show what I do, I do enjoy seeing everyone's photos though, don't get me wrong. If I do it, it is for fun. As alway on a discussion group, the advice will be varied, and people just need to use their common sense. My advice - take it or don't - I don't mind.
p.s. I suppose some sad people could even post up evidence that is someone else working with horses LOL!

 

[Kate F.]

I wonder where Ray got that from? Tom Dorrance 30-40 years ago perhaps? Judging by Tom’s recommended reading and Dominique Barbier it’s been around for hundreds of years in the mainstream now considered classical arena.

Although interesting how popular visualisation has become recently with some trainers.

I think that's right - though I'm not sure how much it had been applied in the context of things like trailering. Maybe it had - that was just the route by which I first came to it in that context.

 

[Lili & Morgan]

Lili and Morgan, sorry, but I don't thing a horse had any idea what an income is, let alone where it comes from or how it is divided up between different jobs. How on earth can it make any difference to the horse whether you are full time or part time professional? .

That was not about money! You Brit, always bring everything to money!

It was about hours spent with horses and to be exposed to different extreme horses. I guess that by now you must be a semi-pro, with advertsing etc ... so you must get a fair amount of experience by being exposed to a variety of horses.

My point was that an amateur won't be called by a vet or farrier for working with extreme horses.
A horse -pro advertising and having his reputation made on working with difficult horses will be then contacted for extreme cases. An amateur won't.


You are organising clinic etc.. I do not know how many per year. So you must see some people in diffculty. But if they come to you, they can load the horse in a trailer.

The Parelli trainer in my area gets home-call from ALL Italy, I know a couple of horses he worked with ... these horses are EXTREME. ( that was NOT a case of cut down their feed, more turn-out.) BTW I knew of the horses before of him. Some horses have a reputation on their own.

So HIS experience will be greater than a dedicated amateur, because of the exposition he gets.
He gets results, (too much testosterone for my taste). But he is a good horseman.

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

Yes - you are right! A horse-pro will have the pressure to perform right.

Yes - you are right! I won't let some horse-pro near my horse. *I* made the mistake, so I can know recognise good from bad!

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-


My point was to be more tolerant with each others techniques. Because there is ALWAYS a day when a horse will show you that you know peanuts! That you do not have yet the experience to deal with him/her.

That is why horsemanship is a never-ending quest. Nobody gets it!

 

[Kate F.]

My point was that an amateur won't be called by a vet or farrier for working with extreme horses.
A horse -pro advertising and having his reputation made on working with difficult horses will be then contacted for extreme cases. An amateur won't. !

Then I guess I'm a pro - even though I have another source of income as well. I get quite a few extreme horses via vets, farriers, horse chiropractors etc. etc.

But if they come to you, they can load the horse in a trailer.!

That's why I have to go to them if it's a loading problem. Actually, I do most problem horses in their own environment. The point is the the owner has to change the way they are handling the horse, so you need to deal with the routine and circumstances they are in every day. It doesn't help to bring them to me, solve it here, then they go home and are back to square one in a couple of weeks. Clinics are usually people who want to improve their relationship with their horse, not real problem horses.

My point was to be more tolerant with each others techniques. Because there is ALWAYS a day when a horse will show you that you know peanuts! That you do not have yet the experience to deal with him/her.

That is why horsemanship is a never-ending quest. Nobody gets it!

That's definitely true!

 

[Crystal Fire]

Who has been intolerant? Scanning back quickly I see some pros and cons discussed, and some recommendations and ideas.

 

[Chilli]

Well, I've put my photos up, and my one precious video - that took me 3 days to edit LOL!

I did say very few, but I must have missed them I don’t think I’ve seen anything other than you sitting on a horse myself.

I think that's right - though I'm not sure how much it had been applied in the context of things like trailering. Maybe it had - that was just the route by which I first came to it in that context.

I was going to say that’s a very unusual take as I can’t think of not having it as a central part of horsemanship, it’s like breathing you do it all the time no matter what you are doing without even thinking about it most of the time.

But a lot of those gentlemen from across the pond don’t always like to tell you exactly what’s going on they like to just point you in a direction, I think they prefer you to work some things out for yourself to a certain degree which I prefer most of the time.

 

[katefarmer]

I can’t think of not having it as a central part of horsemanship, it’s like breathing you do it all the time no matter what you are doing without even thinking about it most of the time.

I guess we're talking about picturing what you want? You and I think it's very central to horsemanship - but I don't think it's all that universal. If you look at all the "how do I do..." "what are the aids for"... questions we see on NR - very few answers include the idea of picturing or feeling what you want. It's usually "put this leg there, do this with that hand"... all very mechanical instructions. I think the power of the picture is something that is ofter overlooked or even left our all together in mainstream instruction.

However, now we'er WAAAAY off topic ... so should perhaps start another thread if we want to discuss it further?

 

[Alex T]

i use a be nice halter on my 15.3hh tbxdales .The improvement is 100% better he used to just charge off randomly with out any explination. We were happy to deal with this until he lost an eye last year and due to the yard being a very busy one with several young children left to roam we decided for his own saftey it would be best to get something with a little more control what a change in the horse he now camly walks becide you and i actually cant really remember the last time he pulled so although he wears the headcollar everyday its not used as such .
Having said that it must be fairly strong as occasionalt rather than take two headcollars i will use it on my arab who is perfectly behaved in everyway and she walks very carefully in it (only way i can describe it ) having said that the bit where the leadrope attaches does swing quite alot when she has it on!
but a deffinate thumbs up from us!

 

[Clava]

Thanks Alext - that's helpful.