Bitless Bridle-What do you think?

A horse is roughly a 500kg animal. A bit (or a bitless) is not going to stop 500kg pulling/shying/taking off if they choose to do it.

I don't believe a bit gives you any more control in such a situation than a bitless.
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A horse that truely doens't want to do what it's told isn't going to listen to anything, but Brodie being nappy isn't that situation - he's just being difficult and stroppy and a bit gives me more 'persuasive' power. Yes, I'm forcing him to do what I want with brute force, intimidation and pain but that's no differant from a lead mare threatening to kick him if he doesn't move out the way when he's told to.

If he was to truely bolt nothing would stop him but the bit causes enough pressure to cut through almost any sillyness and messing about.

After all, all horse communication through stages of pressure, either body laungue or physical pressure. They submit at a certain level. Well-trained horses quickly submit at a very low pressure (a light touch or even just a glance) where as some dominate or insensitive horses only respond to pressure verging on painful. And in certain situations the horses excitment or fear prevents them listening to anyting other than the most severe pressure. Bitless can only take that pressure up to certain level until you cannot apply anymore - that's where bits come in. They can apply enough pressure that the horse, unless truely not ignoring everything other than their fear/excitment, will submit and respond.

I need that leverage and pressure so that Brodie will respond to me when he has to. A bitless bridle he can ignore much more easily. I could ride him bitless 99% of the time but there is always that 1% where he tries to whip around and I need to bit stop him. He's happy with the bit that 99% of the time, so why bother with a bitless?
 
Pink's lady said:
but Brodie being nappy isn't that situation - he's just being difficult and stroppy and a bit gives me more 'persuasive' power. Yes, I'm forcing him to do what I want with brute force, intimidation and pain but that's no differant from a lead mare threatening to kick him if he doesn't move out the way when he's told to.
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That concerns me. It concerns me a great deal. Perhaps the horse shouldn't be ridden if that is what's required to get him to do what you want.

That's just my opinion - I accept that others will not agree with me.
 
Pink's lady said:
A horse that truely doens't want to do what it's told isn't going to listen to anything, but Brodie being nappy isn't that situation - he's just being difficult and stroppy and a bit gives me more 'persuasive' power. Yes, I'm forcing him to do what I want with brute force, intimidation and pain but that's no differant from a lead mare threatening to kick him if he doesn't move out the way when he's told to.

If he was to truely bolt nothing would stop him but the bit causes enough pressure to cut through almost any sillyness and messing about.

After all, all horse communication through stages of pressure, either body laungue or physical pressure. They submit at a certain level. Well-trained horses quickly submit at a very low pressure (a light touch or even just a glance) where as some dominate or insensitive horses only respond to pressure verging on painful. And in certain situations the horses excitment or fear prevents them listening to anyting other than the most severe pressure. Bitless can only take that pressure up to certain level until you cannot apply anymore - that's where bits come in. They can apply enough pressure that the horse, unless truely not ignoring everything other than their fear/excitment, will submit and respond.

I need that leverage and pressure so that Brodie will respond to me when he has to. A bitless bridle he can ignore much more easily. I could ride him bitless 99% of the time but there is always that 1% where he tries to whip around and I need to bit stop him. He's happy with the bit that 99% of the time, so why bother with a bitless?
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See this is my feelings exactly. I don't ride gentle, broken horses. All my horses are green or have past history of abuse (and I do mean it). I NEED that extra security, not only for them, but for myself. Sure, I could probably ride them bitless some of the time and get results - but there are other times when it would be impossible, so why risk my own safety?

I have to laugh when someone mentioned that a horse leads just like he rides ; unfortunately not true. What you want to examine is how a horse lounges - because that's supposed to be the apt description. But leading is an entirely different kettle of fish.

For example, I ride a stallion. Sweetheart, most of the time. To lead him at his own barn, he's a pain in the ass - calling, prancing, stud chain on. To take him to a show, you can walk him around without a halter and he'll follow you like a puppy dog. Yet, to this day, when I ride him, he's pretty focused. But there have been times where he suddenly sees a mare and tries to plow right over. At least the bit gives me a degree of control and a mesure to really force his head around and say "nuh uh, I know shes' a hot one, but we're not finished"

I'd like to see any of you ride a stallion or a highstung horse in a bitless bridle. If you can do it, congratulations, you should be training your own horses, because you must be phenomenal.
 
My uncle showjumps his mares, geldings and stallions bitless and he isn't phenominal.

Incidently, I'm not against riding with a bit - but I am against using the bit with brute force to cause pain to the horse. To me, in my opinion, that is unacceptable.

I realise many people don't agree with me, and that's cool. Just stating my opinion hehe :)
 
I don't advocate using pain as a control mechansim (just my personal opinion).
But I do (sort of - minus the pain) agree with Pink, in that for some horses I do think a bit is needed.

I liken it to carrying a whip.
It's nice to have a horse who doesn't need to one. But occasionally, for whatever reason - be it laziness, sillyness or bad behaviour, your leg simply isn't enough.

You don't have to cause any amount of pain, but a quick back-up with the whip is sometimes necessary.

For example; One of my sister's horses is very unresponsive to the leg when he chooses to be :rolleyes: . But a firm "tap" is all the "additional persuasion" that's needed to make him go forwards.

I don't hurt him (I've tried whipping myself twice as hard and, at worst, it's irritating :cool: ).
Yet without that option at my disposal I have two choices - either I kick him senseless with my legs :( , or I let him be in charge. The first is cruel, the second is dangerous (I can't have him deciding he's not walking through the gate).

For me, I see bits in a very similar light.
 
The pic I posted of the brown horse flexing should indicate the things that I strive for. I think it shows a horse 'being led' correctly, there's no rope in my hand and yet she's 'following my hand' as I 'ask' her to flex her neck. Be a leader and they will follow if you have their thinking brain.


A reactionary horse wouldn't react to such a light 'pressure' (is it pressure?) and more 'force' is needed to get their attention. I don't often get to deal with reactionary horses. Just lucky I guess. :)

Regardless of the situation, I ride all horses "on" my favorite bit.


"It's a little bit of understanding"


Have fun, be safe

Jack
 
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Pink's lady said:
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After all, all horse communication through stages of pressure, either body laungue or physical pressure. They submit at a certain level. Well-trained horses quickly submit at a very low pressure (a light touch or even just a glance) where as some dominate or insensitive horses only respond to pressure verging on painful. And in certain situations the horses excitment or fear prevents them listening to anyting other than the most severe pressure. Bitless can only take that pressure up to certain level until you cannot apply anymore - that's where bits come in. They can apply enough pressure that the horse, unless truely not ignoring everything other than their fear/excitment, will submit and respond.

I need that leverage and pressure so that Brodie will respond to me when he has to. A bitless bridle he can ignore much more easily. I could ride him bitless 99% of the time but there is always that 1% where he tries to whip around and I need to bit stop him. He's happy with the bit that 99% of the time, so why bother with a bitless?
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I think that's exactly right, PL - it's all about degrees of co-operation. I don't know which is rarer: a horse that is totally co-operative 100% of the time, or one that's totally uncontrollable.

There was a nice expression that Wally used once, talking about using a stick - she said you use it to "distract the horse's attention back to you", and that's how it seems to me. I find that hitting your own boot with the stick is almost always enough - you don't have to hurt the horse, it's just a way of saying Hey, listen to me ....

Alex said:
That concerns me. It concerns me a great deal. Perhaps the horse shouldn't be ridden if that is what's required to get him to do what you want.

That's just my opinion - I accept that others will not agree with me.
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Alex, I'm sure that PL didn't mean that literally about brute force, intimidation and pain!
 
Alex said:
That concerns me. It concerns me a great deal. Perhaps the horse shouldn't be ridden if that is what's required to get him to do what you want.

That's just my opinion - I accept that others will not agree with me.
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yes, I regularly beat my horse and torture him into doing what I want:rolleyes:

I'm sure that PL didn't mean that literally about brute force, intimidation and pain
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Thank you LindaAd;)

But that 'brute force and pain' is what I've often heard I'm causing my horse, from bitless fanatics. Of course I'd don't deliberaly set out to hurt my horse, but if I need to cause discomfort to him to keep him safe, I will. It's not like I have barb wire in his mouth - he's in a curved, full cheek frech link. It's a mild bit but can cause enough discomfort to give me 'persuasive power';)

Alex - I'm glad you obviously have a horse who is perfect at all times.;) I, on the other hand, have a resuce case whom many owners have passed on (or abandoned) because he is a stroppy b****r at times. If I didn't have him he would have been PTS. He is a pain in the ass when he feel like it and always will be and therefore needs more than a bitless when he's in a 'hooves-in-ear, not going to listen' mood. I'm not going to retire him just because there are fanatics who believe bits are evil.:rolleyes: -
 
This thread is really mind-boggling.

So mind-boggling that nothing much jumps into my reply, but i will say this:

Whether you use bitless or a bit, you can still get results you want. You can get a horse working properly either way, BUT it doesnt mean to say that if you can get your horse working without a bit a bit 'shouldnt be needed'. If i had a nice, responsive and light horse i would still use a bit - i would simply not use it when they are working properly, but i have still got it there, just in case, for corrections.
 
Alex said:
Incidently, I'm not against riding with a bit - but I am against using the bit with brute force to cause pain to the horse. To me, in my opinion, that is unacceptable.
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I agree with you entirely Alex. My horse was the victim of the brute force method, resulting in him having to be ridden in a waterford bit at all times. This was because of past experience, he came to associate bits with pain and would try to evade them in any way possible - resulting in him bombimg off or rearing when undue pressure was applied.

These problems soon improved when I took the 'less is more approach' by loads of groundwork and re-schooling him for months in a loose ring lozenge snaffle. I can now confidently hack out safely in a natural hackamore (something that couldn't be done previously). I'm also riding him now and again in a Dr Cooks BB purely because I want to enter a few classes at local shows next season and prefer to have a more traditional looking bitless. :)
 
Pink's lady said:
Alex - I'm glad you obviously have a horse who is perfect at all times.;) I, on the other hand, have a resuce case whom many owners have passed on (or abandoned) because he is a stroppy b****r at times. If I didn't have him he would have been PTS. He is a pain in the ass when he feel like it and always will be and therefore needs more than a bitless when he's in a 'hooves-in-ear, not going to listen' mood. I'm not going to retire him just because there are fanatics who believe bits are evil.:rolleyes: -
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I apologise for not understanding the 'brute force/pain' thing - I'm sorry that I misunderstood what you meant. I never meant to suggest that you beat your horse or anything like that, I suppose on the internet it's hard to understand what people mean sometimes. I am sorry, PL. :eek:

I don't have a perfect horse, far from it... and I'm not against riding in bits at all! I was simply saying that a) I don't think brute force/pain are part of riding ANY horse, and b) that unless you use brute force/pain, what is the difference if you have a bit or don't have a bit?

I ride all my horses in a bit as I compete in hacking, so I don't have a problem with bits - only Milly was ridden bitless... so I'm not a bitless fanatic :D

As I said up there, I'm not against using bits, not at all - but I'm against using them to cause pain.
 
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Afellpony said:
would a bitless be legal on the road?
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Apparently most insurance companies void your insurance if you ride on the road in a bitless bridle. I think some of them cover it but can't remember which companies off hand.

Best to check policy documents or call the insurance company to double check as a lot of them do exclude it.
 
This is one of the best threads i've seen on here. I never thought I would see the day when some people admitted on here they are normal and don't treat thier horses like breakable glass. Well done.
Although i think bitless is the way to go I firmly believe you can ride a horse just as softly with a bit. I worked on a dealing yard for years and trust me saying a horse has been abused is no excuse its a reality that can be dangerous and should be taken into consideration. I have been on horses where they will go like kids ponies for days even weeks and then suddenly with no warning they are bronking round the school and nothing but a bit of rough handling will stop them. This isn't bad its sensible.
On the " I'm at university thing" I was in Higher education for 7 years and am now farming in the complete opposite way that we were taught and do firmly believe it is better to both cow and human. The same with horses. Just because they say at college horses should always be tied up in the stable when mucking out, or groomed twice a day it doesn't mean its best. Life is the best teacher. College, University is a good starting block to get a job but that is all. I wouldn't like to say how many times I have heard "right forget everything you've learned at college this is real life". Saying that college and uni is something everybody should do as it is the best fun in the world.
Sorry waffled a bit but keep the the posts coming this is great.
 
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I remember meeting a lady who 'started babies'... young THB horses about to embark on their racing careers.

She had an interesting observation to make. She reckoned that seeing as these youngsters had no previous experience with biting or abusive riding in any way, that the tendency to be 'strong' or 'hard mouthed' or 'willful under saddle' had less to do with previous experience, and everything to do with the innate personality or temperament of the horse.

She suggested that we riders conveniently 'blame' previous bad experiences (abuse) as a rationale for our little darlings bad behaviour :eek:
..because that makes us feel better (its all somebody else's fault)...
And you can imagine how unpopular all of this was with us riders...:rolleyes:

Anyway, her words ran through my memory cells years later when I bought my Saddle-bred Goya. Now, you can bite my head off if you like..:D but I am going to come out and say it I think the training of Saddlers is highly abusive
My friends warned me 'don't buy him, have you seen what they put in their mouths?! he will be ruined...etc"

So I bought Goya, because I followed my gut instinct, and he is the best, safest horse I've ever owned. I never once rode him in the severe curbs he was used to, and now I even ride him bitless 90% of the time. Yes he is a lively horse, but has an excellent temperament and has only ever bombed off in the field (a safe environment) when we were cantering at a cracking pace with other horses.:rolleyes:

I am a mature rider, and not prepared to take unnecessary risks. But I feel safe enough on him to sometimes let him have a good gallop. If on the few times when he has felt 'above himself' I make a note and adjustments accordingly. Even if it means avoiding the riding companionship of other reckless riders.
I often feel that Goya is just like me in type: he likes to have lots of fun, but wants to feel safe at the same time. So he is easy to persuade to calm down again.

But just one other thing about the bitless... I think that once one has decided about the suitability for the individual horse (temperament); that it becomes something in the mind of the rider. My friend rode out with me on Goya in the bitless, and I rode my old THB because I wanted to feel if he was OK. She hadn't noticed that Goya was bitless, and we had a lovely ride. Next day she tacked him up and said 'but where is the bit?!" I told her she had ridden him in the same tack only yesterday, but no matter...
now that she knew he didn't have a bit in his mouth, she rode differently. Goya sensing that she was worried, reacted differently and we eventually had to change horses! Then Goya calmed right down again.:rolleyes:
 
Rowena said:
She had an interesting observation to make. She reckoned that seeing as these youngsters had no previous experience with biting or abusive riding in any way, that the tendency to be 'strong' or 'hard mouthed' or 'willful under saddle' had less to do with previous experience, and everything to do with the innate personality or temperament of the horse.

She suggested that we riders conveniently 'blame' previous bad experiences (abuse) as a rationale for our little darlings bad behaviour :eek:
..because that makes us feel better (its all somebody else's fault)...
And you can imagine how unpopular all of this was with us riders...:rolleyes:
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That's quite true. It's much easier for riders to say "he was abused, not my fault" and not do anything about it. But I truly wonder if those people have actually truly dealt with an abused horse...one who was so head shy from being hit, one that was starved and has spur marks all over the body, one who has never been handled and is deathly afraid of humans for whatever reason.

Once you truly deal with an abused horse, where it takes AGES to gain their trust, you stop saying "meh, the horse much have been abused" unless it's actually true.
 
Trust is a big part of horsemanship, trust me when I say that My Mare doesn't perform tricks for treats. :eek: Nope there's nothing in my hand at all. The only thing connecting me to that horse is communication.

Here she is on the other side, still ground tied and following my hand as I pull it towards her withers. I did have to snap my fingers to get her attention, but then she responded.

FlexRose2-1.jpg


Here's a young mare's second ride, in just a halter and lead ropes. She's flexing and giving to pressure very nicely. Just like she's been taught from the ground.

112f.jpg


I'm not a tree hugger who thinks that bits aren't necesary. All of my horses ride in a snaffle when needed. Nothing more is needed since they remember the foundation we layed with the halter and lead. Imagine how soft that brown horse must be when she's in a bit. I don't have to pull, she just follows my hands direction.

My point, if your having troubles controlling your horse, on the ground or in the saddle, go back to the basics and establish some communication between you and your horse. Things will get better, trust me.

I sure hope nobody thinks I'm arguing. Nope, no tricks, no treats, and nothin to sell. :) If this thread has people thinking about their horses foundation, that's good. ;)


Have fun, be safe

Jack

http://www.horsesplay.us/phpBB2/index.php
 
What an intriguing thread. I drive, one animal bitless, two bitted.
I do think that the most relevant point has been missed. NO two animals OR people are the same. Whether going bitless, and which type of bitless bridle, is all down to the individual horse and rider. There are no rights or wrongs, as in all other aspects of horse care.


OK, back to the discussion:rolleyes:
 
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