Does anyone else find this horrifying????

[Kis Vihar]

Quote: Who knows what we are doing with all the close breeding that goes on in certain breeds? Why shouldn't that cause mental health issue the same as it does in other species?

VERY valid and interesting point, madlady.

 

[Ginger Thing]

Horses can always be healed and changed. If their current home can't, then someone else can.

So are you offering to take him? Sorry, not getting at you or people like Mayoguiness, but this is what this kind of debate always boils down to - there are always people saying 'but someone can help him' but its always someone else, not them! I had the same with my dog, people on the forum not agreeing with pts, but while they are quite willing to state their opinions on forums they never put their money where their mouth is and say 'you know what, I'll take him for you'.

You can't pass the buck to other people, you can't disagree with pts because 'someone else' should step forward and help - if you're not willing to offer that help yourself I don't see how you can argue with the decision to pts? If there are so many people out there with the knowledge and facilities to help this horse, please, pass their details on to the owner.

Sorry, but what I went through with my dog still upsets me, and I hate how people judge you and offer all sorts of suggestions and condemnations without offering real, practical help, and never having been in the position themselves - it truly is heartbreaking

 

[vieshot]

I would PTS if it were mine, i couldnt sell on as a companion for the risk that someone decides to try ride again in the future and i sure as hell cant afford to feed and maintain a horse that is to dangerous to work for his upkeep. Easier for both horse and owner in long run to PTS.

 

[Wally]

Ginger Thing, you and me against the world eh?

Well said once again.

 

[Liz1949]

I don't personally think anyone has the rihgt to put a horse to sleep unless he horse is in incurable, or in unbearable pain for a fair length of time.

So, if 'we' don't have that 'right', are YOU taking responsibility for as many of these horses as you can manage? Are YOU working 18 hour days, 7 days a week to pay for them all? If not, why not?

Horses can always be healed and changed. If their current home can't, then someone else can.

Please tell us all who this 'someone else' is. Someone else will be a very useful resource to know. I would like to keep someone else's contact details handy for the next time I see a horse at the sales that is going for meat.

Would you have your a very naughty child put to sleep?!

How DARE you equate a damaged and ill human, horse or other animal, with mere 'naughtiness'?

Please get a dictionary and look up the word 'naughty' - you might then understand that you are being extremely offensive to those unfortunate people who have had to make the awful decision to euthanase animals or put children or adults for whom they are responsible, into institutional care, when they could no longer give them a safe and secure home. Taking responsibility is about the bad times as well as the good, not about passing on the problem to this mythical 'someone else' who will magically solve all problems.

Get real.

 

[madlady]

Sorry but horses can't always be fixed. That is a fact.

It is a heartbreaking decision to come to but one I think that most responsible horse owners and lovers would make. Ultimately for the horse's sake - who could give a guarantee that this poor animal wouldn't end up suffering physical pain as someone tried to 'teach him some manners' the hard way????

We also as horse owners have to consider all the practicalities of selling on a horse like that - not just for the horse but for any potential future owners.

It can't be compared to a naughty child.

 

[Minski&Kai]

I have to say I would agree with having the horse PTS. A always this tPTS is a last resort, but in this situation I think it is the right thing to do. Even if it was safe to handle on the horse, the number of times people rehome horses as companions on the express understanding never to be ridden, then find out the people who paid very little or nothing for the horse has sold it as a riding horse. The consequences in this case doesn't bare thinking about. It happened to someone on our yard very recently, he got a phone call from a lady in Wales who got his details from the horses passport, having bouht it as a riding horse. He had rehomed on the uderstanding it was never ridden.

I have ridden a lot of horse over the years, who the owners won't ride, some have had half a dozen people try to help with them over the time. Some no one on the yard would get on. In all the years I have been riding these horses, after working with the horses and then with the riders, we have been able to resolve the issues, usually communication issues between horse and rider. Once that is done, they go from strengh to strenth.

In all this time I have only helped out with one horse who was totally different. He was fine to ride, needed a bit or work to handle on the ground. But put him near another horse and he would go out to kill. He totally zoned out and all he could think about was his next victim in his sights. 4 of us had to rescue a foal when the girl let go of him walking though the other field of horses to get to his field. Another time we had to take down a post and rail fence when he went after another horse, and let the other horse through, it was flat out galloping trying to get away and all he could focus on was killing this poor horse. Unfortuntally he gave me a few good kicks over this time, including a broken hand as all his concentration was on his pray and if you got too close, then woe betide you.

 

[tophat]

i haven't read all the pages of replies, but the op has forgotten to mention that the horse in question is also dangerous on the ground. it double barelled the owner whilst being led and broke her collar bone. I can see that a horse doesn't need to be ridden to have a quality of life but even if it is put out as a companion to live in a field for the rest of its life, surely it will need to be handled at some time.

 

[Asima]

Agree with Liz,Puzzles that is a pretty narrow minded view too have. And people who kill are executed in some countries so in fact it does happen to humans (I'm not debating this, just stating it). So it's not the horse being naughty, it's being just plain dangerous.

And I happen to think quite highly of people who PTS in this situation. I admire them for putting the horse before them. As a horse owner there is an overwhelming desire to give your horse as many chances as possible and NOT to kill them. People who make this brave decision are putting the horses welfare before their feelings.

I admire them more than the people who shunt them off to be someone else's problem in the hope they can cure them, and eventually cause them to be abused or shipped off for meat.

 

[Liz1949]

And I happen to think quite highly of people who PTS in this situation. I admire them for putting the horse before them...People who make this brave decision are putting the horses welfare before their feelings.

I admire them more than the people who shunt them off to be someone else's problem in the hope they can cure them, and eventually cause them to be abused or shipped off for meat.

Yes 100%. IMO the owner who makes the decision to euthanase in this situation is both selfless and mature in that they are putting their emotions - and financial considerations, too, given the probable cost of euthanasia compared to giving away or selling - aside and making a responsible decision for the long-term good of the horse and the wider community.

Instead of merely avoiding temporary sadness by forcing a disturbed animal to suffer further episodes of rage, and the wider community to suffer the risk of these rages they are facing up to the situation as a mature and responsible member of the human race. If I were a horse, I would far rather have that person as my owner than someone who thought they were my soppy mummy and let me get passed around from pillar to post when I was in mental agony, only able to express myself in violence.

 

[mayoguinness]

Agree there are alot of people who will work with damaged horses just not enough. You say you've met plenty, in my whole lifetime of horses I've only met one.

Yes some horses come right but not all, brain tumours etc also not all horses respond well to NH methods either, so it's not the answer too all.

True, I was on a NH yard for 5 years so I guess my chances of meeting those sort of people were pretty high.

Thats very much a controversule statment and depends on the type of NH method used (agree, some methods just wouldn't suit some horses AT ALL) but any problemed horses I've ever seen come along (most of which were going to be pts or labelled as "dangerous") have been just fine and turned out to be brilliant horses with correct training, time, patience and the freedom to express themselves and be understood as horses!

Most rescue centers I've seen will rescue horses otherwise going to be pts even if not previously physically abused.

 

[mayoguinness]

i haven't read all the pages of replies, but the op has forgotten to mention that the horse in question is also dangerous on the ground. it double barelled the owner whilst being led and broke her collar bone. I can see that a horse doesn't need to be ridden to have a quality of life but even if it is put out as a companion to live in a field for the rest of its life, surely it will need to be handled at some time.

Sure, but theres no knowing how this person is handleing the horse! If basic equine communication isn't used a horse can think itself the dominant one in the relationship and things like this can happen when the horse is questioning whos the leader, not just because they just suddenly became dangerous and agressive. I don't think a horse can be judged on how it behaves with one person, my mare can be a nightmare with some people depending on how they handle her and will bolt when led etc. yet if a 6 year old child is shown how to communicate with her properly she can be submissive, calm and as gentle as a lamb with them. Very often the behaviour of a horse comes down to how they're handled and not the horse themselves.

I think what Puzzle was trying to say is, a misunderstood child showing what looks like to be outwardly agressive tendancies wouldn't be shot for it, most likely they'd be councelled etc. well maybe some equine psychology wouldn't go a miss either for horses, its sure worked in the cases I've seen when used correctly. Domestice horses aren't naturally aggressive torwards humans, if they become this way, its not because of the horse, its because somewhere along the line somethings gone wrong in the training or interaction and as far as I can see its our responsibility to listen, find out what and work towards putting it right. If the person themselves can't, they're might be someone else who can.

 

[mayoguinness]

If I were a horse, I would far rather have that person as my owner than someone who thought they were my soppy mummy and let me get passed around from pillar to post when I was in mental agony, only able to express myself in violence.

Then the question shouldn't be, shall we put a bullet in the horses head or shall we "let it live with mentle agony as you put it". It should be why the hell is the horse in this state (because it sure as hell isn't likely to be anouther horse thats done it) and what can we do to help it through it? Is this animal mentally unwell or has it simply just been completely misunderstood and expressing it in the only way that makes us listen? Often its the latter and often with the correct knowledge it can be put right as many expert horsemen and women have shown us.

 

[Liz1949]

If the person themselves can't, they're might be someone else who can.

Really?

WHO?

Do let the poor distressed owner of the horse know - and all of us who have had to make that 'decision' in the past, and those of us who might contemplate doing so in the future.

 

[Ginger Thing]

Mayo, I think you are in the rare position of possibly being, or at least knowing, the sort of person who could help such a horse, but I'm sure there are more out there than you or your friends could take on.

I know a lady who could have rehabilitated my dog, but she has 40 years experience, it is her life, and her career - I do not have the experience, facilities or time to do what she could have done, as I have a job and other commitments and other animals to consider, rehabbing aggressive dogs is not my life. Sadly, she can not possibly take on every aggressive dog, and in a world where animals with no problems whatsoever are killed simply through lack of homes (think of all the racehorses who don't make it every year and are slaughtered, they could have gone on to make great horses for someone, but the homes just aren't available), surely it makes more sense to find homes for the ones without issues?

If it was a choice between finding a home for a young ex-racer with no hangups or a proven dangerous horse, which do you think would be easiest? Which one should be pts? In an ideal world, neither, but as long as horses and dogs are killed every day just because there are too many of them being bred, I would pts the 'problem' ones as the others are a damn sight easier to rehome (and even then there's still not enough homes).

In the current financial climate, rescues are going to be inundated with lovely, cuddly, well-behaved ponies and horses, and there won't be enough homes for them, let alone dangerous horses.

Don't get me wrong, I am an absolute softy and love animals, and regularly cry at the plight of dogs on Dogpages, but I am also a realist, and you can't save them all, it's simply a question of numbers. Its the same when people run campaigns to raise £1000's for an operation for a rescue dog -to me that dog should be pts and the money used to help countless others - one life or many?

 

[carthorse]

So, if 'we' don't have that 'right', are YOU taking responsibility for as many of these horses as you can manage? Are YOU working 18 hour days, 7 days a week to pay for them all? If not, why not?



Please tell us all who this 'someone else' is. Someone else will be a very useful resource to know. I would like to keep someone else's contact details handy for the next time I see a horse at the sales that is going for meat.




How DARE you equate a damaged and ill human, horse or other animal, with mere 'naughtiness'?

Please get a dictionary and look up the word 'naughty' - you might then understand that you are being extremely offensive to those unfortunate people who have had to make the awful decision to euthanase animals or put children or adults for whom they are responsible, into institutional care, when they could no longer give them a safe and secure home. Taking responsibility is about the bad times as well as the good, not about passing on the problem to this mythical 'someone else' who will magically solve all problems.

Get real.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[mayoguinness]

Its up to the owners themselves to look, advertise and find the right home. For example my friend's recently given a home to a horse with problems advertised on a NH site in the local area. The owner came out to make sure it was the right home and how her horse would be treated and then she rehomed him to her. He'll have a home for life and is already making a lot of progress. I do realise that homes such as this aren't in a huge supply but they are out there and its at least worth looking at first. There are also people who practise alternative horsemanship that try to look at it from a horse pyschology point of view that are prepared to help train horses and teach people but it does take effort and an open mind in some cases.

 

[Ginger Thing]

Its up to the owners themselves to look, advertise and find the right home. For example my friend's recently given a home to a horse with problems advertised on a NH site in the local area. The owner came out to make sure it was the right home and how her horse would be treated and then she rehomed him to her. He'll have a home for life and is already making a lot of progress. I do realise that homes such as this aren't in a huge supply but they are out there and its at least worth looking at first. There are also people who practise alternative horsemanship that try to look at it from a horse pyschology point of view that are prepared to help train horses and teach people but it does take effort and an open mind in some cases.

And how does the owner know this person is genuine? Look at all the loaning horror stories we've had on here. They could sell it on or do anything - I for one would rather know my troubled horse was at peace and no longer able to suffer. There's been people loaning horses and selling them for meat for goodness sake!

 

[mayoguinness]

Mayo, I think you are in the rare position of possibly being, or at least knowing, the sort of person who could help such a horse, but I'm sure there are more out there than you or your friends could take on.

I know a lady who could have rehabilitated my dog, but she has 40 years experience, it is her life, and her career - I do not have the experience, facilities or time to do what she could have done, as I have a job and other commitments and other animals to consider, rehabbing aggressive dogs is not my life. Sadly, she can not possibly take on every aggressive dog, and in a world where animals with no problems whatsoever are killed simply through lack of homes (think of all the racehorses who don't make it every year and are slaughtered, they could have gone on to make great horses for someone, but the homes just aren't available), surely it makes more sense to find homes for the ones without issues?

If it was a choice between finding a home for a young ex-racer with no hangups or a proven dangerous horse, which do you think would be easiest? Which one should be pts? In an ideal world, neither, but as long as horses and dogs are killed every day just because there are too many of them being bred, I would pts the 'problem' ones as the others are a damn sight easier to rehome (and even then there's still not enough homes).

In the current financial climate, rescues are going to be inundated with lovely, cuddly, well-behaved ponies and horses, and there won't be enough homes for them, let alone dangerous horses.

Don't get me wrong, I am an absolute softy and love animals, and regularly cry at the plight of dogs on Dogpages, but I am also a realist, and you can't save them all, it's simply a question of numbers. Its the same when people run campaigns to raise £1000's for an operation for a rescue dog -to me that dog should be pts and the money used to help countless others - one life or many?

I do understand where you're coming from and what you're saying, it's a cazy world and a stupid system thats the problem and inevatably the animal that suffers!

 

[mayoguinness]

And how does the owner know this person is genuine? Look at all the loaning horror stories we've had on here. They could sell it on or do anything - I for one would rather know my troubled horse was at peace and no longer able to suffer. There's been people loaning horses and selling them for meat for goodness sake!

Yes, it goes on, I know, but I guess if the person genuine they won't mind you checking up now and again to make sure alls going ok, term perhaps need to be agrees and signed if theres any issues such as that.