Does anyone else find this horrifying????

The owner is being responsible and not trying to fob off her problem on someone else that is a very commendable decision. You could be lucky and find someone willing to take the horse on but in all honesty i would question there common sense as most experienced horse people would not do it.
True blind bolting is a horrific thing and the poor woman has had her back broken something like that could easily have killed her this is way past naughty behaviour. She has tried every avenue she can think of and i believe that some horses just cannot be 'cured'.
If the horse was safe to handle then maybe keep trying but it isn't.
 
Mayo, you are being incredibly naive here. Not ALL horses are curable, not everyone has access to someone who can help, whether that is on a permanent or temporary basis, and not all people who can take horses like this on have a limitless supply of funding or facilities. Respect to the poor person who has had to make this heartbreaking decision for the sake of her horse.
 
It's not enough to find one person that a horse will behave for. A horse that doesn't behave for just about anyone is a horse that may find itself under the very real threat of slaughter. What happens when that one magical person gets sick? What happens if they die? If they fall ill and can't care for the horse, if they go broke and can't afford the horse... Well, you now have a horse that may very well revert back to it's old aggressive ways. There's rarely any such thing as a "forever" home.
 
mayoguinness said:
Its up to the owners themselves ...
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Passing the buck is not a very helpful or responsible attitude, is it? At least this poor horse's owners are not passing the buck, but have taken the - IMO - responsible and difficult decision to have their horse humanely killed.

What I have signally failed to see in this thread is anyone who thinks that killing is 'so wrong' actually putting their money where their mouth is and offering to take this horse on and secure its future. Spouting holier-than-though platitudes, blaming the owner (for what?) and passing the buck are hardly going to 'save' this horse, or any of the hundreds of others who are humanely killed for good reason and no good reason, every day.

Come on then, step up to the plate, all you wannabee horse-savers - where are you? If killing this horse is so wrong, why aren't YOUR fields full of unrideable, dangerous horses whose problems you are busy solving? I want reasons, not excuses ...

It was hard enough for my pony's original owner to find the right home for her at a give-away price - despite her youth, beauty, soundness and excellent breeding and temperament - owing to what are really very minor issues with which I have had no problems whatsoever.

Do you have any idea how hard it is for a horse with serious problems to find the right - or indeed any - home?

Do you have any conception of how the credit crunch is making things
difficult for people who would otherwise take on a difficult horse, or owners who would have previously just let the horse live out its life peacefully in a field?

And to end with a harsh practicality - how would you justify, in a court of law, the keeping of a known-to-be-dangerous horse for which you cannot get public liability cover owing to its past history?
 
mayoguinness said:
I do get what people are saying, if the horse is sold on at some point as a safe riding horse then it is dangerous but they're are experienced caring people out there, willing to give a horse a home for life even if they do have problems. I've met plenty of people such as this.
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No-one and I don't care who they are can guarantee a home for life.What if their circumstances change? what if they can't afford them? what if they suffer ill health or die?
There is always a chance no matter how slim that the horse could end in the wrong hands,and even that slim chance could mean someone getting hurt or worse.

puzzles said:
I don't personally think anyone has the rihgt to put a horse to sleep unless he horse is in incurable, or in unbearable pain for a fair length of time.
Horses can always be healed and changed. If their current home can't, then someone else can.

x
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Like many have pointed out though,it's finding that 'someone else',and being able to guarantee that the horse will stay with that person and not be passed on,which IMO is nigh on impossible.PTS in the case of a dangerous horse is to protect people,which has to take prority.
 
Pale Moon said:
When I put my initial post up this was exactly how I felt, but now I have seen others replies, I have changed my way of thinking....

Sometimes, despite what you do, there are always going to be living beings that just aren't right.... whether they are human, canine, equine... whatever.

Its great that your horse came right after some schooling... but there are also horses that don't and are a danger to the people that try and care for them or ride them. its an awful decision to make and I am sure that no one ever makes it lightly, but sometimes, as bad as it is, it may be the only option, especially if the alternative is being shunted from pillar to post and maybe ultimately ending up in pain because noone is looking after their basic needs.

The post that I put up tonight has taught me a valuable lesson... yes there may be a lot of horses that can be helped, but maybe, when you have exhausted all other avenues, it ultimately may be the only thing left and as BIrish has said, quite rightly, the horse won't know any differently... and maybe it would have saved him months of suffering before someone finally made the decision....
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I totally agree - there are times when sometimes it is just too dangerous and human life should always come before animal life BUT pts shouuldnt always be used as an excuse. i think in this case it just isnt wise to keep the horse to be ridden. there should be some way of recording it so that people know if the horse is ever sold on that under no circumstances is this a riding horse - like on the passport - except they can so easily be 'lost'.
 
ok so what i m getting from alot of you is that i should of let river be killed just because he'd been extremly dangerous with one person he should die, the fact that all he needed was to be ridden differently and a different bit is no excuse , just because with me he hasnt put a foot wrong in 5 years counts for nothing , his previous owner should of collected the meat money not just given him to me on loan then after 2 months signed over ownership .
 
flashy33 said:
ok so what i m getting from alot of you is that i should of let river be killed just because he'd been extremly dangerous with one person he should die, the fact that all he needed was to be ridden differently and a different bit is no excuse , just because with me he hasnt put a foot wrong in 5 years counts for nothing , his previous owner should of collected the meat money not just given him to me on loan then after 2 months signed over ownership .
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I didn't say that this horse should die - I just think the owner should not be condemned IF SHE makes that decision. I say good luck to her if she wants to keep him as a field ornament, but if she wants to pts, that's her choice too.
 
I don't think there are enough permanant homes available for problem horses although I'm sure all of us would wish that there were. We wouldn't be having this debate otherwise!

The yards in my area are able to pick and choose who comes to them and if a challenging horse is looking for a place then they can afford to say no.

I also agree with the sentiment that those who agree that PTS is the safest option are those with a grasp on reality.

How many people do you know that are not only capable of taking on a challenging horse but also is in the market for one?

Now take a look at all the adverts out there for horses needing a new home. There are plenty of ads for uncomplicated horses that can't find a new home let alone the more challenging ones. Stabilty and skill is the issue here.

Think about the proportion of people you know in the horsey word that take on a horse for life. How many people do you know, through no fault of their own, that have found the need to sell on?

I'm sorry but this is yet another thread like the one asking about how much would you spend out on treatment for you horse thread. There are those that say they have no limits and those that live in the real world and know that everybody has their limits no matter how well meaning their intentions.

I remember reading a case study (Heather Moffatt - Perfect Manners) about a horse scared of cows. They overcame that by stabling a calf next door. The horse got used to the calf and was still scared of every other cow!

If that were an issue with humans then just getting comfortable with one human isn't enough.

Do these people who believe all horses can be helped also believe that no other dangerous animals, such as dogs, should be PTS either?

Having an animal PTS is a last resort but one that any responsable owner needs to consider in extremem circumstances.
 
A friend had a horse bought from an auction. She had him for years but he was dangerous. He would buck, rear, spin with no regard for his safety - I would not hack with him it was dangerous for all involved and he would rear infront of cars and slip and slide and generally terrify all riders and drivers. He was just as bad in the field or when being schooled - infact she was asked to leave a show as he was causing a danger to the other competiters.

The owner tried everything for him. Had his back/tack teeth checked, had massage, reiki and all sorts but nothing ever changed. The problem was was that it was so random. He would be going beautifully - perhaps for a week and then suddenly would just snap and the rider would generally find herself on the ground.

She decided to let him live out and retire him but she found he could not go barefoot in the field and had to be shod every 4 weeks and be kept on farriers formula all the time. He had to be well rugged and he had to be well fed all year round and he was always hanging at the gate.

She made the hardest decision ever and had him pts. There was no way she was ever going to sell him - too dangerous and she would not send him as a companion. 1. I doubt anyone would take him as he would have been a very expensive companion and 2. he was a beautiful mover and it would have been tempting for anyone to sit on him.

So, I really hope I am never put in that position and I'm not sure what or how I would make that desicion. I think I would make the hard decision to pts if I had tried everything and could not keep him on grass livery for whatever reason be it financial or because the horse was unhappy. But, I think my friend did the right thing and was very brave to do so. She tried and tried and tried and the fact he was at an auction in the first place probably says a lot.

I do wonder what these animals have been through to get to this state though. Poor things. :(
 
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flashy33 said:
ok so what i m getting from alot of you is that i should of let river be killed just because he'd been extremly dangerous with one person he should die, the fact that all he needed was to be ridden differently and a different bit is no excuse , just because with me he hasnt put a foot wrong in 5 years counts for nothing , his previous owner should of collected the meat money not just given him to me on loan then after 2 months signed over ownership .
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I don't think anyone is saying that at all - in fact I don't think this thread is about your horse and its problems at all, but another horse entirely and its problems. Every case is unique and given that the horse that is actually the subject of this thread is considered dangerous, has seriously injured the owner and is difficult when handled as well as being ridden is the case being discussed.

I understand that you feel personally about this situation but so do I. My pony hd a fractured pedal bone that would not heal. He was in constant pain. He needed expensive remedial shoes every month. He was a good doer and would have ended up with laminitis. He was on 24/7 boxrest and when turned back out (gradually) his behaviour was dangerous to other liveries. He was 9 and had previously led a very active life. Do you think I should have kept him alive? Do you think I could afford to? Do you think I could find a retirement home for him?

Nobody is saying you should have let River be killed. Each situation has to be judged on its own merits.
 
mayoguinness said:
Sure, but theres no knowing how this person is handleing the horse! If basic equine communication isn't used a horse can think itself the dominant one in the relationship and things like this can happen when the horse is questioning whos the leader, not just because they just suddenly became dangerous and agressive. I don't think a horse can be judged on how it behaves with one person, my mare can be a nightmare with some people depending on how they handle her and will bolt when led etc. yet if a 6 year old child is shown how to communicate with her properly she can be submissive, calm and as gentle as a lamb with them. Very often the behaviour of a horse comes down to how they're handled and not the horse themselves.

I think what Puzzle was trying to say is, a misunderstood child showing what looks like to be outwardly agressive tendancies wouldn't be shot for it, most likely they'd be councelled etc. well maybe some equine psychology wouldn't go a miss either for horses, its sure worked in the cases I've seen when used correctly. Domestice horses aren't naturally aggressive torwards humans, if they become this way, its not because of the horse, its because somewhere along the line somethings gone wrong in the training or interaction and as far as I can see its our responsibility to listen, find out what and work towards putting it right. If the person themselves can't, they're might be someone else who can.
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most horses can be difficult if they are not handled properly and don't see the person as their leader. Perhaps this is the answer, perhaps the woman who owns him, with 25 years of horsemanship under her belt just isn't handling him with the correct bodylanguage. so if that is the case on the ground, then it could just be just down to her not riding him properly. Perhaps there is nothing wrong with him at all and she should just get somebody else to ride him.
Perhaps somebody should put their money where their mouth is and take him on then and prove all the people who say pts is wrong and that they can sort this horse out.

This horse has no regard for its own safety (for whatever reason) so good luck to whoever takes him on. I agree with horses been given a chance and in the right hands, most can be normal and great riding horses. I would love to hear that someone has done it with this horse. Lets hope that they come to no harm in the process.
 
flashy33 said:
ok so what i m getting from alot of you is that i should of let river be killed just because he'd been extremly dangerous with one person he should die, the fact that all he needed was to be ridden differently and a different bit is no excuse , just because with me he hasnt put a foot wrong in 5 years counts for nothing , his previous owner should of collected the meat money not just given him to me on loan then after 2 months signed over ownership .
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That's rather ridiculous, one sided way to look at things. We have not said that the horse should be killed. We have said that dangerous and incurable horses should be peacefully PTS, instead of shunted off and becoming abused possibly worse. And I hardly think this horse has just been ridden in the wrong way.

Mayoguiness not all horses can be saved. I'm not of the NH thinking. I'm of the ask don't force group, but I think reading a horses body language is something all horse owners should do automatically. Not specific to a type of horsemanship. I will happily work will a horse I think can be rehabilitated and have done. But there is no way I'd endanger my life for one.

mayoguinness said:
Yes, it goes on, I know, but I guess if the person genuine they won't mind you checking up now and again to make sure alls going ok, term perhaps need to be agrees and signed if theres any issues such as that.
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And do you really think checking and loan agreements will stop these people. I'm afraid your being very naive if you do, a women on another forum recently loaned her horse signed agreements everything she went to check as you've suggested and her horse was gone. Got it back eventually after buying it back in a horrific state. Also I think it was Pedilia who either had her horses stolen or neglected and she had loan contracts etc. So I'm afraid that's not a safe bet either. Nothing ever is.

Agree with Liz, tophat, joyscarer and numerous others completely, in an ideal world they'd all be rescued but they can't be. It isn't relevant how the horse got in the situation. it's awful and shouldn't have happened but it has. And now someone has to be the responsible and deal with the consequence's.

It's time to face reality, this horse is a danger to people. I spect everyone would have plenty to say if it was left out in the field with no hoof work but how can the farrier do anything if he tries to kill him?. He is a danger to himself and people around him. He could be given away as a problem horse but what if the worst happens?. This person shouldn't be condemned, they should be respected for something most people wouldn't have the guts too do.
 
This has made me think about a horse I knew a while ago.

His owner had him for 7 or 8 years I'd say, and put up with an awful lot from him. He really could be very dangerous with people, which we think was caused by abuse in his previous home. His behaviour (he used to bite people quite savagely if they got to close) meant that he had to have separate turnout with his owner's other horse and made him very difficult for other people to handle. Unfortunately, work commitments meant that his owner did sometimes have to rely upon other people to bring him in or turn him out for her, which worked okay until his behaviour really started to deteriorate. After a particularly rough patch where he took chunks out of a woman who used to do liveries on the yard and the owner's friend, she decided to have him PTS. She made this decision (which she found incredibly hard) based on the fact that his behaviour was not 'curable' (it was manageable at best) and it was becoming more and more likely that he would hurt someone seriously. She couldn't sell him on or loan him out, because it would not be fair to him or whoever took him on. There was no way that most people would give him as much time and patience as his owner had, and we could all see him being passed from pillar to post and ending up in a very poor home indeed. I would say that her decision was made out of love for this horse, and I fully respect her for having made it, much as I respect the owner of the horse that started this thread.
Good owners don't make these decisions lightly. It's not as they don't consider other options beforehand. Sadly, sometimes PTS really is the kindest option.
 
Having been in a similar position to the poster, I really feel for her. I posted on here pobably a year or 2 ago about my TB who was a serious bolter and broke my neck, caused me to have a bleed on one side of my brain, a serious brachial plexus injury telporarily paralyising one arm and a jaw injusry. I got a lot of people advising PTS as well as various other options e.g. companion etc. Well i decided to keep him as a field ornament. Gradually we built up to riding in a school very controlled, now we are 100% mobved on from that and hack, jump and have fun (never alone as he will bolt if not in company due toseparation anxiety). However, had he not been manageable at all on the ground I could not have kept him, and he would have been PTS rather than risk him going elsewhere. As it was I just needed to understand his ridiculously severe separationa anxiety and never put myself in danger by carefully managin his life. It is a pain in the bum but I absolutely love him to bits despuite what happened. Sometimes it can work out. Just depends why the horse is acting how it is
 
Liz1949 said:
Come on then, step up to the plate, all you wannabee horse-savers - where are you? If killing this horse is so wrong, why aren't YOUR fields full of unrideable, dangerous horses whose problems you are busy solving? I want reasons, not excuses ...
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Mayoguinness, puzzles, flashy, et al ... I am disappointed that none of you have offered this poor misguided horse a luxury home for life while you solve its problems, but I'm ever-hopeful and still waiting for the offers to take on this horse come flooding in to this thread.

But what are you going to suggest if it becomes apparent that people who have the skill, time, facilities and desire to take on a problem horse or pony are far fewer in number and much sparser in distribution than you imagine them to be?
 
A lot of horses cannot be changed. Some things stay with them the rest of their lives - they remember very well. An example is my share horse is very good on the lunge, yet his old owner who bred him says he hasnt been lunged for about 6 years. I imagine bad things are remembered even more so.

Mayoguinnes, yet again we see from you some very sanctimonious comments, yet you are not willing to listen to other peoples opinions or feelings and sit there behind your keyboard condemning them. Do you personally work and pay for your horses? Can you personally afford to keep a dangerous horse as a companion, when it costs the same amount as a rideable one (save for possibly the initial outlay)?

And lets not forget the old 'if its dangerous to ride and it has a uterus, put it in foal', as if that will miraculously cure the problem. Wasnt there a story recently about a mare that foaled and then attacked and killed the foal in the process?

What i love about the icelandics is that pragmatic approach. If the horse is dangerous, it goes to slaughter. It no longer breeds, it is no longer a danger, the problem is solved. The icelandic temperament is fantastic, and as Frances pointed out any physiological problems are not passed to the next generation.

I deeply feel for the owner of this horse. What a decision she has to make, and whichever she decides will be the right one, regardless of the opinions of us on t'internet.
 
Mayoguinness, puzzles, flashy, et al ... I am disappointed that none of you have offered this poor misguided horse a luxury home for life while you solve its problems, but I'm ever-hopeful and still waiting for the offers to take on this horse come flooding in to this thread.

if someone brings iy over to me i will quite happily take it on , yes my stables and fields are full of mis treated animals with various personal problems , the 18hh DW that used to blind bolt , star who will rip the arm of any stranger that goes near him, harvey who still cannot be ridden in an open area because he rodeos, and thats just for starters ive got another 6
 
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