Help, How Does This Saddle Look? *Picture Heavy*

Flipo's Mum

Heavy owner of a Heavy
Aug 17, 2009
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Perthshire, Scotland
Conscious of the few bolts and spooks I've had with Flip recently, I've got to have his saddle checked. He's currently sporting a Wintec Wide, 17.5" in the middle gullet and I'm terrified that when I call someone out to take a look I'm going to get my fingers wrapped, despite it being what was recommended by the RS I bought him from. :eek:
Could you take a look and give me a critique? He's a big lad, 15.2 Belgian Draft, no withers and I'm a big girl :eek:. Problem is he's pretty short coupled. I've had his teeth and back checked, am looking into a different bit, so this is just one of those things I need to rule out before we look at behaviour issues.
Here goes, sorry the angles may not be best, I can always go back and get some more piccies to post if anyone thinks it would help.:eek:

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Difficult to see with the hair I know.
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(Not far enough forward?)
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Ok first off you know that everyone is going to disagree on this don't you,so expect to come away more confused than before lol.Saddle fit will always be guaranteed to have 20 different opinions:p

Here's my opinion for what it's worth.First I see no problem with the choice of saddle,wintec wides are a good choice for flat backed no wither types.I use one on my roly poly fell pony:)

I have spotted a couple of things.How much further down does the front end come when you are in the saddle?? If it was me I would be trying the next gullet down in size,so the xxwide I think that would be?? Looks a bit too wide for him to me and very close to his wither and flap splaying out slightly as it comes down his shoulder.The shoulder brings me to my second point,move the saddle forward a tad.It won't cover his shoulder as there is too much too him for that,saddle looks like a pea on a moutain lol so no danger of it restricting him IMO and from what I can see in pics.

As it is now that saddle looks too long for his back,I would suggest a 17".He is VERY short coupled,and that saddle as it sits now is too far back past the last rib,and might be causing him pressure in areas there shouldn't be pressure.Having said all that it is difficult to tell from pics,so go on your own judgment about how it looks in the flesh,but in those pics it's sitting too far back on him.Moving it forward might help though,and enable you to keep the 17.5".You will probably need a breast plate.I use one on my fell as flat back,no wither equals saddle slipping back:rolleyes:

What is going with that girth?? Can I see two sets of buckles in some pics but not in others?? What girth straps are you using?? I use the two middle ones on my wintec wide,looks like you might be using front and back from pics (sorry if not is hard to tell from pics),I am not certain of this by any means but I always thought it was not a good idea to girth up using straps not next to each other,especially ones quite far apart as they would be if are using the front and back two out of four.Like I said could be completely wrong on that but thought it might create a bit of a 'gap' in the middle and uneven pressure underneath that point.Hopefully someone more knowledgable than me can elaborate on that though;):eek:


Like I said difficult to tell without seeing it in the flesh and being able to run a hand under it and have a fiddle etc,and like I also said you will probably get many conflicting opinions,but that's my input for what it's worth:)
 
Thanks devonlass, hope I didn't sound like I was slating the wintec btw, just worried because I've since found out the bit the rs had my boy in was a 5.5" and he's more like a 6.5-7", so just concerned! You're right, it's on the first and last girth strap and there are four. This was recommended to me on flat back to form a 'y' shape to keep the saddle in place but get what you're suggesting about it causing uneven pressure.(and there's a girth extender on at the mo although that day I realised he didn't really need it) Yep I see that's it's too far back now standing back and looking at photos, not an excuse but feel that his stupid mane gets in the way when I put it on and then I go round the other side it doesn't look right. I will look into the gullet and maybe take another photo having changed it, never thought of going down, expected to have to go up the way!
Lol yep I expect some differing opinions which is good for me to hear, ultimately I'm still getting a saddle fitter out, I just wanted to be a bit more informed about possible issues so I feel more like I have a clue.
 
imo the saddle doesnt fit well at all.

it sits too far back and is too long for his back imo

plus its width doesnt fit him at all, it sits all wrong and doesnt contour down his withers/shoulders.

as for girthing, its fine, it does create an uneven pressure to a degree and thats the idea to keep the saddle in place, its not a bad uneven pressure
 
Thanks Ceirion, I think I might face problems with the size of my bum and the length of his back on this one! As for the width, would you say too narrow or too wide, sorry I know I'm showing my ignorance but I'm really wanting to better understand this.
 
Thanks devonlass, hope I didn't sound like I was slating the wintec btw, just worried because I've since found out the bit the rs had my boy in was a 5.5" and he's more like a 6.5-7", so just concerned! You're right, it's on the first and last girth strap and there are four. This was recommended to me on flat back to form a 'y' shape to keep the saddle in place but get what you're suggesting about it causing uneven pressure.(and there's a girth extender on at the mo although that day I realised he didn't really need it) Yep I see that's it's too far back now standing back and looking at photos, not an excuse but feel that his stupid mane gets in the way when I put it on and then I go round the other side it doesn't look right. I will look into the gullet and maybe take another photo having changed it, never thought of going down, expected to have to go up the way!
Lol yep I expect some differing opinions which is good for me to hear, ultimately I'm still getting a saddle fitter out, I just wanted to be a bit more informed about possible issues so I feel more like I have a clue.

Don't worry wintecs do have a bit of a marmite reputation,but I have found this particular model to be excellent for flat backed native and cob types:)

I was wondering about the girth thing.Like I said I could be very wrong about the girth straps,and I know these wintecs have the extra strap to account for the 'roundness' but I was more under the impression that the idea was more so that could use front *or* back depending on where it slipped,rather than both,if that makes any sense?? Just seems having two girth straps in the middle un-used could create a bit of a gap that could make the saddle to not lay evenly on the back and cause un-even pressure?? Total guess though,and only going on what have been told with 'normal' girthing arrangments,so please do ask saddler when they come out and let me know:)

As for the gullet,that's a really tricky call without seeing it in the flesh *and* seeing the front of the saddle when you are on board.Just going on how it *seems* to be in pics,looks quite close to his wither without anyone on board,and seems to be a bit splayed as it goes down over the shoulder (or where the shoulder would be on a normal shaped horse lol:p).To me this indicates that the gullet is a bit too wide,but having said that he is probably the type that changes shape fairly rapidly,in the roly poly sense??;) If so you could leave the gullet and see how it fits in a month or two,use a thicker saddle pad numnah perhaps in the meantime?? That is the other thing of course there is no pad used in the pics,it might look a whole lot different with a pad on depending what type you use??

I so hard to get a good idea without being able to have a poke and a prod!!

Overall I don't think it looks a majorly bad fit,and apart from it sitting too far back is unlikely to being causing him any discomfort or pain as it is.Only my opinion of course,but in case it helps those are my thoughts on it:)
 
imo the saddle doesnt fit well at all.

it sits too far back and is too long for his back imo

plus its width doesnt fit him at all, it sits all wrong and doesnt contour down his withers/shoulders.

as for girthing, its fine, it does create an uneven pressure to a degree and thats the idea to keep the saddle in place, its not a bad uneven pressure

First two points already mentioned although I would disagree that the width is 'all wrong',it's not perfect but not that bad by any means,but as I said everyone will have varying opinions on saddle fit;)

I would appreciate it if you would elaborate on the 'not bad un-even pressure' though as I would have thought any un-even pressure when combined with significant weight in it would be bad?? I am also generally interested in the whole girthing issue here as mentioned in other posts so please enlighten us Ceiron if you will:)

flipo's mum-I am not meaning anything personally by the significant weight BTW,I would class anything over 8 stone to be significant when talking being carried on a horses back!!
 
Just to add to the mix, when my saddler came out to fit a brand new saddle to Joy a couple of years back, she was thrilled with the fit and then asked me to get on board. My bum didn't even touch down before she ordered me back off again as my weight made a difference that couldn't be seen without me in it. Then she needed to see us in motion too.
 
Lol devonlass, I was nodding my head at significant weight before I read your last comment, don't worry I don't take offence, I know I've got some work to do. Seriously you're now making me question where I got that advice about the first and fourth so i'm way to search the web but will definitely check with saddle lady when I get her out but not riding at the mo and she's apparently mega busy so may be a wee while yet and I'll let you know. As you say though, different people even saddlers will have different points of view!
 
Just to add to the mix, when my saddler came out to fit a brand new saddle to Joy a couple of years back, she was thrilled with the fit and then asked me to get on board. My bum didn't even touch down before she ordered me back off again as my weight made a difference that couldn't be seen without me in it. Then she needed to see us in motion too.

Yep JC part of the concern I have about getting on at the mo, vicious circle as saddle could be causing our ridden issues but very worried about getting on board to try a new saddle but know I need to for my weight. I will have to be on a leadrein for that.:eek:
 
I always use the first strap as it is attached seperately to the tree from the others. Which of the others you use depends on your horses shape but generally the further apart ie your first and fourth , the less the saddle will roll on a flat backed rounder horse, that is why the 'cob' models have four straps and produces a similar effect to the balance strap on a sidesaddle.

I personally don't like the shape of wintec panels as they tend to be a bit 'banana' shaped and not lie correctly on lots of backs. If money is not an object I would have a saddle made with longer flaps and a very flat seat. This will look better on him and give you more 'seat' space on a shorter saddle to suit his short back.
 
I always use the first strap as it is attached seperately to the tree from the others. Which of the others you use depends on your horses shape but generally the further apart ie your first and fourth , the less the saddle will roll on a flat backed rounder horse, that is why the 'cob' models have four straps and produces a similar effect to the balance strap on a sidesaddle.

I personally don't like the shape of wintec panels as they tend to be a bit 'banana' shaped and not lie correctly on lots of backs. If money is not an object I would have a saddle made with longer flaps and a very flat seat. This will look better on him and give you more 'seat' space on a shorter saddle to suit his short back.

And that will be one of the more knowledgable people I was hoping would reply;):D

Sorry to hi-jack and pick your brains eml,but does using the straps so far apart create any sort of gap,and cause the saddle to rise at any point in the middle,that's really not a good description,sorry but can't think how to put it into words:eek: So the pressure all along the saddle would be less even then with the tension of the girth straps so far apart,that doen't make any more sense does it:eek:

On the shape of the tree,is the banana shape not more associated with the wintec 500,which I know does have the more TB suitable shaped tree.I thought it was a lot flatter on the wintec wides as they are designed for cobs etc?? Mine certainly seems quite flat,especially the panels at the back which are lovely and 'native friendly' shaped,I know these were a problem for many flat backed types but again I thought that was mainly on the 500's??
 
I have no idea but think that it is great that you are going to lengths to check the fit. I hope that you get something that you and your horse are comfortable with.
 
Yeh! Thanks EML, thats the info I was looking for! No worries Devonlass, I'm learning so good to get other questions asked.
I'm very conscious that it looks pea sized on his back so having one specially made won't be ruled out long term, would longer flaps be purely aesthetic? never thought of that so thankyou, but at the mo there's a big question mark over our partnership continuing so I want to prioritising good fit, even if a good fit is a bright pink glitter saddle.

MP - thankyou, this is me taking my first small step out of my comfort zone before I get a saddle fitter out for real :eek:. And thankyou to Popularfurball for being the one to challenge me to take some piccies to post when I was scared to even put the damn thing on his back (she was a little tardy in holding up her end of the bargain to pick Silver's feet out though - uhuh you did eventually!)
 
Personally i would say the saddle is to tight at front. Its sat high in front which means your weight will be to far back in the saddle putting pressure in a much smaller space on his back, it does look like your tipping slightly to compensate. Also looks like it maybe to tight on his shoulder and effecting the movement in it, probably pinching. These 2 combined would poss lead to him being sore and behaving "off".

Is it bridging?? Sit it on his back and place on hand ontop of saddle, push your other hand under the saddle flaps from the back to roughly point of pocket, then trace your fingers along the under neath of the pannels. Do they touch evenly from front to back, any gapping in the middle. If it is, depending on which straps you are using say front and back u may be making this pressure worse. First and last strap is know for holding a saddle still on a rolly pony but also can cause a saddle to bridge, and make bridging worse if already there.

I would say its to long some pictures it seems to be sat slightly over his shoulder blade at front and others possibly past his last rib at back.

The pannels arent the right shape for him, id say he needs wide flat pannels, if you look at it from behind, the pointy parts of the pannel are the main part touching his back, this is designed for something with a less flat back. when your sat on the saddle youll be pushing this "pointier" bits into his back and giving poor weight distrubution, aswell as it being poorly balanced and tipping back, and pinching at front.

I'd say this saddle is all wrong for him and you need a new one, flocking will not sort this out. Sorry but id seriously not ride in it any longer, if he's showing unusual behaviour then he's telling you something. Get someone out to check it, dont give them any info other than you dont think it fits, to many saddlers will jump on something said by the owner and be blind to other problems. If your not convinced get a second opinion, dont just accept what your told!!
 
Sorry I am just a bit biased as I have yet to find a wintec that fits any of ours (let alone the TBs!!) but I use Thorowgoods in the RS and the TBs have an ancient Fieldhouse, Dever WH and and Ideal Show saddle that fit all of them!!

The longer flaps will give you more space to have knee and thigh rolls that really fit you as you are essentially having to get a saddle that is potentially too small for you to for the short back of your horse. (I actually have a 16" old fashioned flat seated dressage saddle that I fit in bought for that very purpose)

As long as the girth is fastened correctly and not cranked up too tight, the tree is sound and the panel not too soft and offering an even contact with the horses back, the width between the straps will create a triangle of support. On a sidesaddle which is subject to a potentially much more uneven weight distribution the 'normal' girthing arrangement is supplemented by a balance strap which goes from under the riders offside seatbone to the most forward nearside girth strap, this is an extreme version of the 'traingle'
 
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I used to have a wintec wide for my boy Bertie, one thing I noticed about it was that the pommel came down a lot lower with a rider on board. Bertie is not a typical flat back build and it did fit him fine, in theory it should have fitted my daughters flat backed pony but it lifted at the back. Tbh I never felt very secure in the wintec.
One of the best saddles I have found for flat back types is the Ideal highland & cob, this saddle is available in a wide seat, which does mean a larger rider can get away with a slightly shorter saddle if horse is short backed.
 
Personally i would say the saddle is to tight at front. Its sat high in front which means your weight will be to far back in the saddle putting pressure in a much smaller space on his back, it does look like your tipping slightly to compensate. Also looks like it maybe to tight on his shoulder and effecting the movement in it, probably pinching. These 2 combined would poss lead to him being sore and behaving "off".

Is it bridging?? Sit it on his back and place on hand ontop of saddle, push your other hand under the saddle flaps from the back to roughly point of pocket, then trace your fingers along the under neath of the pannels. Do they touch evenly from front to back, any gapping in the middle. If it is, depending on which straps you are using say front and back u may be making this pressure worse. First and last strap is know for holding a saddle still on a rolly pony but also can cause a saddle to bridge, and make bridging worse if already there.

I would say its to long some pictures it seems to be sat slightly over his shoulder blade at front and others possibly past his last rib at back.

The pannels arent the right shape for him, id say he needs wide flat pannels, if you look at it from behind, the pointy parts of the pannel are the main part touching his back, this is designed for something with a less flat back. when your sat on the saddle youll be pushing this "pointier" bits into his back and giving poor weight distrubution, aswell as it being poorly balanced and tipping back, and pinching at front.

Bridging!! That is the term I was looking for in reference to the whole gap/pressure thing with the girth straps,thank you for that!!

Do you really think it's sat high at the front?? See now I thought it was quite close to his withers,especially as someone else mentioned these saddles sink quite a bit once a rider is on board,but hey ho this is what I meant when said there will be 20 different perspectives lol

In regard to the panels at the back,I have to say owning one of these saddles myself that the panels are pretty much as flat as you can get at the back!! I think the problem is that because the saddle is on a dark background it looks like they end pretty much at the seem that is visible,The panel actually extends under that a fair bit and can't actually see from those pics where they meet the horse (or I can't anyway,but that could be my eyes lol),I suspect if the OP was to put a white sheet under the saddle and take pics could get a lot better idea of where the panels actually sit on the horse.I have just looked at my saddle like this,and panels definitely look flatter than in those pics,so can only assume it is the lighting and background in the pics.

Have to say I am not seeing a terrible fit here,agree it's not perfect,especially how far back it goes over the ribs,but there is nothing glaringly obvious to me that is wrong enough to suggest very poor fit.I have seen far,far worse;) A few minor niggles I can see,but nothing that would stop me riding in it,especially if it was placed a bit further forward.

FM is there anyone at your yard that knows a bit about saddle fit?? Would be a lot better for someone to actually see it rather than trying to judge fit by pics,are lot's of poking and prodding things that are helpful to determine saddle fit,so someone having a fiddle around could put your mind at rest a bit:)
 
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