Nebo Black Magic

Marmite

Marmite

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Mar 15, 2006
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Lancashire/Manchester
Thats that welsh D stallion that everyone wants a foal from, right?

Most of the people I know who own younger welshes have Nebo black magic somewhere in their lines...my questions simple really. Since he has so many foals/so many D's have him in their lines, wont that cause quite a problem with inbreeding and decreasing gene pool sizes etc.? Therefore possible mutations within a few generations of him? I was thinking about this the other day (instead of revising :rolleyes: ) and wont all D's in the future be decendants from him, and itll all be slightly messed up and inbred?

Well, wasnt sure where to put this, as its a discussion, but about breeding so i'll put it here :)

Any thoughts on this, or clearing things up a bit for me would be appreciated :)
 
It's not so much a case of everybody wanting a cob with NBM in their pedigree, so much as the fact that he is one of the most famous cobs (mainly because he does crop up in so many cobs' breeding) so he is probably the one 'famous name' that most people know.

As for the narrowing of the gene pool - definitely a problem with NBM. I know a couple of breeders who actively look for cobs without him in the pedigree - there are several stallions who were just as good, but not so popular at the time, whose lines are therefore rarer and to an extent more sought after.

The same is true of Downland Chevalier in sec B breeding - he crops up all over the place because he was so popular in his day.

I'm not sure that cobs with NBM in their pedigree are 'messed up' to be honest - most are a few generations on from all his influence, and if problems are going to crop up they tend to do so earlier rather than later.

I have a feeling most breeds have similar issues at some point - I think the same is true to an extent in ID breeding, where Ben Purple was a big influence (if I've got that right).
 
Just been reading about this on the www.allbreedpedigree.com site

inbreeding is only a factor when both the sire and dam have similar ancestors and the subject horse can have matching sets of chromosomes (alleles) from a specific ancestors.
Click to expand...

Clearly an issue with Tb's in some cases as well. I wonder if it's sometimes a contributing factor to the 'wappiness' that these breeds are known for?
 
Even my sister's scruffy little Welshy has Nebo Black Magic in her bloodlines. :D And he's in there two or three times which can't be very good...

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/hillgarth+storytime

This is her (posh name for a very unposh pony!) and you can see that NBM is her great great grandsire, but also her great great great grandsire twice over! Before I saw that a few months ago (until recently I only knew her sire, but not her sire's breeding) I had no idea inbreeding things like this went on to this extent!
 
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Mossy, Highland, has shared ancestry in his veins too. Not recently so hopefully the time gap and natural mutation has diluted the effect not concentrated it. Con goes back to NBM, amongst others. Not that far back either. She comes from a line whose sires were all 20+, randy lot these Welshmen:D
 
I belive that there is actualy sometimes a strategy of inbreeding, or 'line breeding' - not that I know that much about it, but my neighbour had a lovely welsh cob stallion who was line bred, and a bit loopy. He was gelded as he was too much of a handful, and though he calmed down and was lovely to handle, he was never the brightest. Beautiful to look at though.....My neighbour explained his breeding to me, and expected me to know some of the names, but I'm afraid that they went in one ear and out of the other:o

I'm sure that you get similar problems in pedigree dogs - look at some of the problems breeds get that your average mongrel doesnt have to deal with.
 
The idea of line-breeding is to 'stamp' certain desirable characteristics in a particular breed. From experience I'd say that where it does go wrong in Welsh breeding, you do tend to end up with the more dramatic type of cob... ;)

Tis not always the case though. My B stallion is terribly closely bred - dam's sire and sire's sire are one and the same... :eek: And yet he is one of the softest, kindest, easiest ponies I've ever met. It's always a gamble using line-breeding. When it does go wrong, it tends to be terribly wrong.
 
chev said:
I have a feeling most breeds have similar issues at some point
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Sorry I know he isnt a Welsh but does illustrate the point re "most breeds"
I noticed this on Pickles paternal grandads side
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/calero

although this only shows 5 generations back, I took each one of the last line and traced them back too, got to about 1857 :eek: and found lots that cropped up quite a few times.
old_woman said:
It's a good thing we humans find it so difficult to trace our "breeding" back as many generations and as widely, as is done with horses and dogs.
Many of us might get a very unpleasant surprise if we were able to do so with any degree of accuracy...
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yes before transport was so widely available, cousins marrying cousins was very commonplace, and I should think worse the further back you go lol
 
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Hi, don't want to upset anyone here, but, Nebo Black Magic is a common breeding line now, just like Revel, Coed Coch and Ebbw Victor and Derwin etc..... All were and are very popular, it will all sort out in the end, most Welsh H&P have one or the other plus Yaverland etc. Depends on whether you want a small head, small ears, black, chestnut etc. go on your gut instinct and go for temperament, a lot of these top stallions do not see grass they are kept in stables and rarely go out, the latest popular one is the Terminator line. Keep studying young lady! exams are upon you and your teachers won;t be interested in Nebo etc. Good luck. Sharon
 
I'm not sure that cobs with NBM in their pedigree are 'messed up' to be honest - most are a few generations on from all his influence, and if problems are going to crop up they tend to do so earlier rather than later.
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breuddwyd, I'm sure you're right when you say to go for temperament and Chev too, when you say it is all diluted in the end anyway. Mine, like many others has NBM as a direct descendent on his sire's side, has the sweetest nature, and great confirmation with no real problems at all. I can't believe he's the exception or there must be an awful lot of screwed up welsh d's out there.
 
Kes's dam has nebo black magic in her lineage, her dam and sire both have nebo black magic in their lines and her dam also has nebo more magic (by black magic) in her parentage.

Kes's sire's side is a lot less line bred and from the Llanarth lines. Wouldn't say kes is messed up, he's one of the sweetest welsh cob's i've ever come across.
 
Many years ago we had a welsh cob. This is his pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sunroyd+merlyn

as you can see Nebo Black Magic is both his sire and his great grand sire on his dam's side.

Whether that was the reason for him being a complete horror I don't know. All I can say is that he once bucked my dad off on a field and then went back and kicked him, breaking his ankle. He also bucked my dad off over the fence of the outdoor school. I have to admit that I've never come across a Welsh D that I would want to own and would never consider buying one.
 
Phi doesn't have NBM - she is bred from alot of Nebo Stock but her sire was the chestnut Nebo Owen, and she also has Nebo Daniel who I like much more than NBM! :)
She has Nebo Brenin and Tyngwndwn Mathrafal Lady quite a few times though!
www.allbreedpedigree.com/uppergraig+princese
 
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