The stupid hunt ....

[india]

I'm curious... which bird of prey don't they use?

Some of these hunts don't actually own a bird of prey, they only have a falconer at the meet as a pretense - just incase they're caught illegally flushing with a pack of hounds.

 

[carrimclaren]

Of course it is. Once a fox knows there is a reliable food source it will return to it, this is exactly what happened at our yard when hens were taken.

Like at the poor old boy who lives on his own up the hill from us. 400 chickens the fox destroyed over the space of a week. Another local farm had 200 killed not long afterwards.

 

[Yann]

Like at the poor old boy who lives on his own up the hill from us. 400 chickens the fox destroyed over the space of a week. Another local farm had 200 killed not long afterwards.

All due respect to those concerned but surely something is up with the stock management practices if a fox can return repeatedly and slaughter them at will?

 

[country_bumpkin]

I'm curious... which bird of prey don't they use?

A golden eagle, his name is Erlan - he was bought by the hunt at no small cost, we also employ a full time falconer. We have video footage of our eagle firstly in training, then missing the foxes and eventually getting the hang of it. We have had the falconer and golden eagle since the ban came in and his success rate improves with every season.

I'll try and find a piccy after lunch.

 

[Yann]

The lengths some people will go to to maintain their 'fun' I find it all slightly bizarre personally.

 

[Rips]

So you say fox hunting is necessary to maintain a stable population. But what evidence is there to show that the population would become unstable if foxes weren't hunted? I am not aware of any, and it isn't what one would expect given what we know about fox ecology. Rather, all hunting does is reduce the overall population from a stable level to a slightly lower stable level. Isn't that true?


Ok, a question asked out of ignorance: If a fox has been taking lambs or has broken in and killed hens, isn't it possible to wait for it to return, lamp and kill it? My guess is that you'd have to be very patient - perhaps too patient for it to be an economically viable solution. How about going out lamping in the area where the problem occurred? If you shot a fox, you'd couldn't be sure it was the 'rogue', but couldn't you carry on doing this until no more foxes turned up? Of course, in time another fox, or other foxes, would invade the vacated territory - but that would happen no matter what method of killing was employed, and the replacement fox may not be a 'rogue'.


As I said before, I am against the use of snares (and traps that injure). It sounds like you are too...?

Hasn't the fox population in Scotland decreased dramatically since their ban was introduced? There are definitely figures avaible on this somewhere

The land around where I live is a bird preservation, its callow land expiecially for marsh and swamp birds, grouse, waders, snipe, corncrake and various types of duck. I even saw 2 pairs of whooper swans last winter. Its not suitable terrain for hunting and the farmers are paid by the government to ensure the land isn't disturbed in this way anyway. We are overrun with foxes - we have a fox family that comes into the garden at night when we call in the dogs. Our neighbours have another that comes to the call of a squeaker to be fed You see them more often then cats, they come out in broad daylight. The farmers are big into lamping but all its done is dent the rabbit population, the foxes wait until light if they are bothered.

I like them personally but I still go out at every opportunity and hunt them because I like the wildfowl just as much and wouldn't like to see a decline in either.

 

[carrimclaren]

All due respect to those concerned but surely something is up with the stock management practices if a fox can return repeatedly and slaughter them at will?

In a perfect world yep i'd agree. He's 75, he's got no family now he's lost his brother and he's lived and breathed that farm since he was born, normal story of old traditional farm i'm afraid. He hasn't a lot of money and has recently been struggling with bad health too. Hence why his stock management isn't at it's best.

 

[Morganna]

Hasn't the fox population in Scotland decreased dramatically since their ban was introduced? There are definitely figures avaible on this somewhere.

I cannot find any information on this however, I did find an article which studied the effects on the fox population during the one year ban of fox hunting back during the foot and mouth issue. This was printed by the International Weekly Journal of Science and I quote a section of the report below

"We took advantage of a nationwide one-year ban on fox-hunting during the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease (FMD) in 2001 to examine this issue and found that the ban had no measurable impact on fox numbers in randomly selected areas. Our results argue against suggestions that fox populations would increase markedly in the event of a permanent ban on hunting"

According to a newspaper article on 2004, there has been no change to the number of foxes in this country in the 25 years previous.

 

[HashRouge]

The problem is that we create the situation in which we feel its necessary to hunt foxes - keeping chickens or breeding lambs as a means of making a living I mean. In some ways, we are making it far too easy for the foxes.
But, look at domestic cats. They are causing serious trouble for species of mice and voles, yet no-one is suggesting we start hunting them....

 

[Francis Burton]

Hasn't the fox population in Scotland decreased dramatically since their ban was introduced? There are definitely figures avaible on this somewhere

Decreased? Interesting... What does that mean? I haven't seen any figures for Scotland - maybe someone else could give a pointer. All I know is the urban fox population has been increasing in Glasgow over the last 3-4 years.

 

[country_bumpkin]

 

[Cerys]

He is lovely

 

[india]

Lovely bird, but that photo just leaves me cold.

The hunt obviously know the agonising injuries the fox suffers when caught by this bird of prey and must also be aware of the dangers involved to not only the bird but also to their horses and hounds.

And all for the sake of satisfying their lust for the sport.

Quote from the Chairman of the Hawk Board - Re: using Birds of Prey to avoid the hunt ban:

"We have been treated with tremendous arrogance by the hunts. Why do a few renegade packs want to make life more difficult for themselves? We have disassociated ourselves from them and warned that if called [to give evidence in court] we will be hostile witnesses. Falconry clubs will discipline any members helping hunts."

These type of hunts have done more to hinder their cause than to help it.

 

[lottie.dot]

Hi,

It would appear that this thread has gone from method of thought, straight into a debate about foxhunting which is a shame, however it is such a powerful topic and I can certainly apprecitate everyone who has commented as they feel just so strong, either way they go.

However lets be clear on something; People who hunt do so, becuase they enjoy the day out. End of story - Don't ass insult to injury with stories about how you are trying to keep populations down of this and that - You enjoy it, its reason to get dressed up and have a thrilling exciting ride on horses, meet new people and everything is all hunkydory. Hell, I'd love to go hunting, galloping off with a with a varied bunch of horses jumping whatever fences come our way....

But I wouldn't! Why? As I would never go out knowingly to shred an animal. I simply do not enjoy watching animals get chased and killed for no reason. No it is not the same as when animals kill in the wild - that is a silly, silly comparision. Everyone who does go, obviously has different morals in this world and that is fine, that's what makes us different, but the way I see it is, this isn't some fun ride for all to enjoy - animals die here. They die a horribly death and for what??? Hunters will come up with all sorts of excuses but that's what they are, excuses to carry on with the hunt.

When will this all stop and so everyone can go out drag hunting?

 

[wanabe]

Hi,


However lets be clear on something; People who hunt do so, becuase they enjoy the day out. End of story - Don't ass insult to injury with stories about how you are trying to keep populations down of this and that - You enjoy it, its reason to get dressed up and have a thrilling exciting ride on horses, meet new people and everything is all hunkydory. Hell, I'd love to go hunting, galloping off with a with a varied bunch of horses jumping whatever fences come our way....

I agree with this. Forget trying to justify it as needed pest control, or because foxes deserve it because they're vermin. Or by saying that only the old and weak foxes are killed. As someone said on another site, "it is what it is".

But I wouldn't! Why? As I would never go out knowingly to shred an animal. I simply do not enjoy watching animals get chased and killed for no reason. No it is not the same as when animals kill in the wild - that is a silly, silly comparision. Everyone who does go, obviously has different morals in this world and that is fine, that's what makes us different, but the way I see it is, this isn't some fun ride for all to enjoy - animals die here. They die a horribly death and for what??? Hunters will come up with all sorts of excuses but that's what they are, excuses to carry on with the hunt.

When will this all stop and so everyone can go out drag hunting?

Here is where you go off course, I think. The anti isn't more moral than the hunter. The non-hunter is more empathic -- that's all.

 

[colettybetty]

Wow, this has been a very informative thread, some great points raised. Thanks India for that quote from the Chairman of the Hawk board.

 

[country_bumpkin]

He is lovely

The bird or the falconer!!!!

 

[country_bumpkin]

Lovely bird, but that photo just leaves me cold.

The hunt obviously know the agonising injuries the fox suffers when caught by this bird of prey and must also be aware of the dangers involved to not only the bird but also to their horses and hounds.

And all for the sake of satisfying their lust for the sport.

Quote from the Chairman of the Hawk Board - Re: using Birds of Prey to avoid the hunt ban:

"We have been treated with tremendous arrogance by the hunts. Why do a few renegade packs want to make life more difficult for themselves? We have disassociated ourselves from them and warned that if called [to give evidence in court] we will be hostile witnesses. Falconry clubs will discipline any members helping hunts."

These type of hunts have done more to hinder their cause than to help it.

Our hounds are always fully under control when we are flushing to the eagle, there is a format that such activities follow and this is always strictly adhered to. Golden eagles catching foxes is entirely natural behaviour, the weight of the eagle and the power of his talons means death is as quick as he can make it, but things don't always go to plan and a slight change in wind direction or misjudgement by the eagle can lead to a miss or being unable to hold the quarry. By using an experienced falconer (not a hunt subscriber who has been briefly trained for the job) he is on hand to assist, while the birds are kept, trained and worked to the highest standard.

I wonder if the boot had been on the other foot and falconry was banned unless quarry was flushed by hounds (an unlikely scenario, but bear with me) would Jim Chick appreciate us taking a similar stance and refusing to give the benefit of our expertise and threatening to testify against us.

 

[india]

Golden eagles catching foxes is entirely natural behaviour

As the Golden Eagles weight carrying capacity is only around five kg at the most, it's quite obvious hunting or catching a full grown fox is NOT an entirely natural behaviour as you're trying to suggest!!! This bird of prey would only be capable of naturally hunting fox cubs!!!

...would Jim Chick appreciate us taking a similar stance and refusing to give the benefit of our expertise and threatening to testify against us.

Jim Chick and other very knowlegeble Falconers gave the hunts their expertise opinions by advising against using birds of prey to avoid the ban as this would not only be an inhumane method of catching a fox but would also compromise the welfare of other animals involved.

But while some responsible hunts took heed of their advice, other blew caution to the wind and went ahead regardless!!!

 

[Yann]

I wonder if the boot had been on the other foot and falconry was banned unless quarry was flushed by hounds (an unlikely scenario, but bear with me) would Jim Chick appreciate us taking a similar stance and refusing to give the benefit of our expertise and threatening to testify against us.

Fair play to the bloke for his integrity and his refusal to bow to pressure from the 'countryside' lobby.

From the RSPB website:

Eagle diet is principally mammals and birds, taken both alive and as carrion. Main live prey consists of medium sized mammals and birds such as rabbits, hares, grouse and ptarmigan. The diet of coastal birds includes gulls and other seabirds. Larger items are taken as carrion.

The maximum weight most golden eagles can lift is 4-5kg, hence tales of very large animals or even children being carried away are to be viewed with scepticism.

Since the average weight of an adult male fox in this country is apparently 6.8kg it's clear that setting an eagle on an adult fox is not natural behaviour but risky and perverse.