Question in the title. I call all big, fine horses TB types but have no idea what a Warmblood is?
Whats the difference between a TB and a Warmblood?
- Thread starter Mary Poppins
- Start date
Ok, you've got me. I can tell you how they physically differ (well, mainly) but that's about it...
After doing a short amount of searching on the internet, it appears that there isn't a specific definition of a warmblood.
Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse:
"The term "warmblood" has two different meanings today; the more common modern meaning refers to a specific subset of horse breeds, and the other, older meaning refers simply to horses of a moderate temperament. The term "warm blood," up through approximately the 1970s, originally referred to any cross of "cold blooded" draft horses on "hot blooded" Thoroughbreds or Arabians. Examples included breeds such as the Irish Draught horse or the Cleveland Bay, and sometimes also referred to the "Baroque horses" used for classical dressage, such as the Lipizzan or Andalusian. Sometimes the term was even used to refer to breeds of light riding horse other than Thoroughbreds or Arabians, such as the Morgan horse.[27]
Today the term "warmblood" usually refers to a group of sport horse breeds that have dominated the Olympic Games and World Equestrian Games in Dressage and Show Jumping since the 1950s. The "Warmblood" breeds began when European carriage and war horses were crossed with oriental horses or Thoroughbreds, producing a tall riding horse with more refinement than a draft horse, but greater size and more phlegmatic temperament than a lighter breed."
Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse:
"The term "warmblood" has two different meanings today; the more common modern meaning refers to a specific subset of horse breeds, and the other, older meaning refers simply to horses of a moderate temperament. The term "warm blood," up through approximately the 1970s, originally referred to any cross of "cold blooded" draft horses on "hot blooded" Thoroughbreds or Arabians. Examples included breeds such as the Irish Draught horse or the Cleveland Bay, and sometimes also referred to the "Baroque horses" used for classical dressage, such as the Lipizzan or Andalusian. Sometimes the term was even used to refer to breeds of light riding horse other than Thoroughbreds or Arabians, such as the Morgan horse.[27]
Today the term "warmblood" usually refers to a group of sport horse breeds that have dominated the Olympic Games and World Equestrian Games in Dressage and Show Jumping since the 1950s. The "Warmblood" breeds began when European carriage and war horses were crossed with oriental horses or Thoroughbreds, producing a tall riding horse with more refinement than a draft horse, but greater size and more phlegmatic temperament than a lighter breed."
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I've always thought that technically a warmblood is not actually a breed, more a 'type' bred for show jumping and dressage. Actually a warmblood is derived originally from a thoroughbred crossed with a colder blooded animal.
The word I think comes from animals bred originally in Europe, but I guess a TBXIrish Draught could also be called a warmblood?
TB's are bred and built for stamina and speed, which is why they are mostly 'fine' (eventing)(racing) Whereas warmbloods are bred with power and substance (show jumping + dressage) for pure disciplines. Of course there are variations in all of these.
Dunno, perhaps someone-else can describe it a bit better than me!
P
Pink's lady
Guest
A warmblood is type of horse - a hotblood (TB or arab mainly) crossed with a coldblood (draft horse).
They therefore have more substance than a TB but much more lightweight than a draft horse.
A Warmblood is something slightly differnet - it's breed now just like any other breed. They are starting to become more and more like TB's nowadays - orginally they would have been much heavier. They are being breed for movement (which can be amazing in some horses) and you can't get them for a big heavy clumpy beastie. They're still not a refined as a TB and they generally don't have they 'scrawny' looks many TB's have.
They therefore have more substance than a TB but much more lightweight than a draft horse.
A Warmblood is something slightly differnet - it's breed now just like any other breed. They are starting to become more and more like TB's nowadays - orginally they would have been much heavier. They are being breed for movement (which can be amazing in some horses) and you can't get them for a big heavy clumpy beastie. They're still not a refined as a TB and they generally don't have they 'scrawny' looks many TB's have.
Good post!
So an Irish sports horse is a warm blood then?
I didnt know either and felt too stoopid to ask!
So an Irish sports horse is a warm blood then?
I didnt know either and felt too stoopid to ask!
Most of the top level WB breeds have a substantial amount of TB blood in. Deliberately bred back in to lighten the breeds and give quicker/sharper brain. The Danish WB studbook as just licensed several stallions for the specific purpose of 'lightening/refining' the breed.
WB's did go through a phase of being called Dumb-bloods as they were quite heavy physically and definitely not on the quick side brain-wise.
The more modern WBs can be pretty light. Then again get an old-fashioned NH bred TB and they can be pretty chunky.
Belle (my coming 2yo filly) is a registered WB but is over 65% TB by blood.
WB's did go through a phase of being called Dumb-bloods as they were quite heavy physically and definitely not on the quick side brain-wise.
The more modern WBs can be pretty light. Then again get an old-fashioned NH bred TB and they can be pretty chunky.
Belle (my coming 2yo filly) is a registered WB but is over 65% TB by blood.
This is confusing. So if a warm blood is a cross between a hot blood and a cold blood, what exactly are 'hot' and 'cold' bloods?
JOJOBA
Fluffy Bunny, apparently
Hot bloods are arabs, TBs, Iberians etc. Cold bloods are usually draughts.
Hot bloods tend to be hot in nature, cold bloods tend to be laid back
.
ETA - cross posted with Wally!
xxx
Hot bloods tend to be hot in nature, cold bloods tend to be laid back
.ETA - cross posted with Wally!
xxx
I may have made a major mistake. I thought (until today) that warm and cold blood literally referred to the blood temperature of the breed of horse?
When I started riding I bought cut price from Woolworth's an Encyclopedia of Horse and Ponies.
It has a page opening for every breed with a symbol indicating blood temperature.
Yet when I look closely the same book gives an overall blood temperature for horses of 100.5-101 F or 38 C at rest.
You are right Mary Poppins. People usually talk about a Dutch Warm blood, or a Danish Warm blood - they don't usually use the term on its own.
When I started riding I bought cut price from Woolworth's an Encyclopedia of Horse and Ponies.
It has a page opening for every breed with a symbol indicating blood temperature.
Yet when I look closely the same book gives an overall blood temperature for horses of 100.5-101 F or 38 C at rest.
You are right Mary Poppins. People usually talk about a Dutch Warm blood, or a Danish Warm blood - they don't usually use the term on its own.
It's now actually really misleading to say that a warmblood is a cross between a hotblood and a coldblood.
While that was what the ORIGINAL warmbloods were-and its true in a very technical sense, to label such a horse as a "warmblood" has evolved into many court cases here on misrepresentation especially in the case of the PMU foals.
A warmblood is a type of horse, just like saying that a hotblood (tb, arab) is a type of a horse. A holsteiner, or a hanoverian is a BREED of warmblood. They descend from different parts of Europe in which each part strove to breed the most suitable horse. A Hanoverian for example, tends to be stockier and bulkier than a Trakehner. More hanos were used in the military, whereareas Trakehners were expected to have elegance and refinement as they were in the military but also in royal parades (they are also the only studbook that is closed!), so that's where you get the different evolution of warmblood breeds.
While that was what the ORIGINAL warmbloods were-and its true in a very technical sense, to label such a horse as a "warmblood" has evolved into many court cases here on misrepresentation
especially in the case of the PMU foals.A warmblood is a type of horse, just like saying that a hotblood (tb, arab) is a type of a horse. A holsteiner, or a hanoverian is a BREED of warmblood. They descend from different parts of Europe in which each part strove to breed the most suitable horse. A Hanoverian for example, tends to be stockier and bulkier than a Trakehner. More hanos were used in the military, whereareas Trakehners were expected to have elegance and refinement as they were in the military but also in royal parades (they are also the only studbook that is closed!), so that's where you get the different evolution of warmblood breeds.
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I get so confused with all this. I know a Danish Warmblood is a warmblood, as is a Swedish Warmblood, Dutch Warmblood, etc., but then people call Hanoverians, Holsteiners, etc., warmbloods, too. I saw somewhere that an Irish Sporthorse is a warmblood, but I guess they're not called Irish Warmbloods because they're actuall a draft cross, although an Irish Draught isn't the same sort of draft breed as a Clydesdale, Suffolk Punch, Percheron, etc. Or is it?
Then I look at pedigrees of Danish WBs, Dutch WBs, etc., and see Thoroughbreds there, fairly recently sometimes. I really don't understand these breeds as breeds, when a hypothetical Danish Warmblood could have one TB parent and one Danish Warmblood parent, and that Danish Warmblood parent could have one TB parent and one Swedish Warmblood parent, or one Hanoverian parent and one Swedish Warmblood parent, or one TB parent and one Holsteiner parent? It is like the early days of TB breeding, though, or the early days of a lot of other breeds.
Were the original Hanoverians, Holsteiners, and other carriage/heavy harness horses considered coldbloods, or have they had Thoroughbred blood in them for as long as, say, a lot of Cleveland Bays?
I "know" that a Thoroughbred is a horse that is, or is eligible to be, registered in the Stud Book and can be traced back to one or more of the three foundation sires. I also know that a draft cross is NOT a warmblood, although technically, I guess, if you cross a TB or an Arabian (hotblooded breeds) with a draft horse, the foal would be a warmblood (i.e., a cross between a hotblood and a coldblood). Yet here in the US we have got draft crosses that are called warmbloods or even, I think, sometimes American Warmbloods.
Back when I was a child, TB crosses were called half-breds. Now some people call a TB-Percheron cross a Thorcheron. A QH-Friesian cross can be called a Quaresian.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Then I look at pedigrees of Danish WBs, Dutch WBs, etc., and see Thoroughbreds there, fairly recently sometimes. I really don't understand these breeds as breeds, when a hypothetical Danish Warmblood could have one TB parent and one Danish Warmblood parent, and that Danish Warmblood parent could have one TB parent and one Swedish Warmblood parent, or one Hanoverian parent and one Swedish Warmblood parent, or one TB parent and one Holsteiner parent? It is like the early days of TB breeding, though, or the early days of a lot of other breeds.
Were the original Hanoverians, Holsteiners, and other carriage/heavy harness horses considered coldbloods, or have they had Thoroughbred blood in them for as long as, say, a lot of Cleveland Bays?
I "know" that a Thoroughbred is a horse that is, or is eligible to be, registered in the Stud Book and can be traced back to one or more of the three foundation sires. I also know that a draft cross is NOT a warmblood, although technically, I guess, if you cross a TB or an Arabian (hotblooded breeds) with a draft horse, the foal would be a warmblood (i.e., a cross between a hotblood and a coldblood). Yet here in the US we have got draft crosses that are called warmbloods or even, I think, sometimes American Warmbloods.
Back when I was a child, TB crosses were called half-breds. Now some people call a TB-Percheron cross a Thorcheron. A QH-Friesian cross can be called a Quaresian.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
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i'd agree with stormarion - originally, a warmblood with a small w was a hotblood x coldblood. now a Warmblood with a capital W is a type (with specific breeds in that type like holstein, hanoverian, trakehner etc), just like a cob is a type.
All of the warmblood types are now warmblood breeds-they all have their seperate registries and associations that detail the breed characteristics suitable for registration. So a holsteiner (originated from Holsteir) is just as much as warmblood as a Hanoverian (originated from Hanover). And for a horse to be "registered" as a warmblood in one of the respective registries, they need to be able to trace their pedigree back 5 generations (except for the stupid knock off regsitries. but let's not get into that!)
The original warmbloods did have TB blood in them, but it was minimal. Because remember, the horses weren't used for pretty dressage or jumping. They were used in fields, and in the military, so they were quite hardy.
The use of TBs as a refinement is more common in the past 20 years then any other, because of the fact that TBs introduce a little bit of lightness to an otherwise heavier and stockier breed. While warmbloods are notorious for their movement, TBs give them a bit more agility.
The new naming of things is getting a bit ridiculous. It's like a labradoodle.
But no, there is no registry for Thorcherons. And it's not a recognized breed. It's a mixture of two breeds. And ISHs are not warmbloods either. Their breed is an ISH. However, I do believe there is actually an Irish Warmblood registry-but it doesn't have any Irish Draught in it (or it's minimal if they do include it)
Confusing, isn't it?
There's actually a really good article on it that was posted by the United States Equestrian Federation that you can see online that might explain it
http://www.sonestafarms.com/wbinfo.htm
The original warmbloods did have TB blood in them, but it was minimal. Because remember, the horses weren't used for pretty dressage or jumping. They were used in fields, and in the military, so they were quite hardy.
The use of TBs as a refinement is more common in the past 20 years then any other, because of the fact that TBs introduce a little bit of lightness to an otherwise heavier and stockier breed. While warmbloods are notorious for their movement, TBs give them a bit more agility.
The new naming of things is getting a bit ridiculous. It's like a labradoodle.
But no, there is no registry for Thorcherons. And it's not a recognized breed. It's a mixture of two breeds. And ISHs are not warmbloods either. Their breed is an ISH. However, I do believe there is actually an Irish Warmblood registry-but it doesn't have any Irish Draught in it (or it's minimal if they do include it)
Confusing, isn't it?
There's actually a really good article on it that was posted by the United States Equestrian Federation that you can see online that might explain it
http://www.sonestafarms.com/wbinfo.htm
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