I have no idea about the "phases" but in answer to your question I would say Enough
Horsemanship is about offering the "good deal" first, applying enough pressure untill the change occurs and then the release.
Happy Trails
Are different breeds more receptive to certain NH methods?
- Thread starter HashRouge
- Start date
I have no idea about the "phases" but in answer to your question I would say Enough
Horsemanship is about offering the "good deal" first, applying enough pressure untill the change occurs and then the release.
Happy Trails
Have you ever been bitten or kicked by a horse? Ouch! I could not/would not give that much "pressure"-- which is pure horse -- but if I could/would, I think I'd be a more effective trainer. That said, my involvement with horses is for pleasure, so I move at what is comfortable for me; while I'm trying to improve, by not "nagging" (too many soft pressures, instead of a firmer, clear ENOUGH signal.) When dealing with horses, we can't ignore the human personality, and what he/she wants to get out of it. It's only the sadistic approach which one should wholly condemn.
I have got a quarter horse, and he likes it spelled out.. I dont think he is stupid by any stretch, but he is simply not prepared to "get out of bed" for anything less than a really clear signal!! If I dont ask right, I dont get!!
I thinks thats just his personality though not his breed!!
He teaches me so much sometimes I forget he is the baby!!!!!!!
I thinks thats just his personality though not his breed!!
He teaches me so much sometimes I forget he is the baby!!!!!!!
Don't think you understand four phases AO!!
Why would someone have no feel at all just because they use phases of pressure?
I can tell you now, that I use phases/degrees of pressure, and I have excellent feel, and timing. Not saying its perfect all of the time, but I know when it's good, and I recognise when it is not what it could be.
Oh I use degrees of pressure all right, but the four phases, as described by Parelli, is a different thing altogether and, in my opinion, does not involve feel.
Why would you assume that I don't understand four phases; did it not occur to you that you may have misunderstood my answer?
The four phases in the Parelli sense use four different signals, and strengths of signal each phase, which has to be confusing for the horse, particularly when all four are used to teach one response.
What makes anyone think that if one has to go to phase four to teach a horse to back up, for instance, that the horse will automatically recognise that phases one, two, and three were connected in some way to phase four, and that he will have learned that he must respond to phase one in order to consequently be spared the other three?
It makes no sense at all to train a horse four different cues for one task, allowing him to misunderstand, or ignore each previous one, then have to train him 'backwards' to allow him to learn that phase one was what we wanted his correct (achieved by phase four) reaction to in the first place.
I use one phase, that is to say one signal/cue/call it what you will, with varying amounts of pressure according to the learning ability of the horse and the speed with which it complies.........therefor, if I have to use, on a scale of five, three 'units' of pressure, with the same cue, consistently until I get the correct reaction, I could reasonably expect that horse to need only one or two units to perform the task the next time I ask, provided my feel and timing was correct in the first instance. Equally, the next horse may need only one unit of pressure for the same result, and the next may need more.
What I don't do is change the cue and, therefor, the goal posts, each time I ask the horse to perform an identical task.............I ask him again the same way I asked him the first time, increasing the pressure until he gets it right, then rewarding him so that he associates one cue with one action with one reward. Thereafter, he, having learned that one cue means he must give one reaction, will be more keen to give when asked again, so all I have to do is reduce the amount of cue/pressure to hone his reaction...........I don't have to teach him the first three phases in reverse.
You are right in one sense...........I will never understand the need to use four phases to teach a horse one action.
Feel, for me anyway, is not a tangible thing to be felt through a rope. For me, feel is the ability to sense the energy changes within the horse, and to be able to anticipate his compliance before he decides or learns to give it, so that my timing of the release and the following reward may have a greater impact upon him.
When I'm loading so-called difficult horses, I can feel the energies fluctuating in the horse, and that is what allows me to judge when to ask for something, and when to accept that the horse is not ready to give.
The best way for me to describe that feeling is to say that I become totally tuned to the horse (to the point where I am unaware of almost everything else around) so that I imagine I am in close physical contact with him, and I'm able to bring him with me when I move up the ramp. Sometimes I don't even need my eyes to be open.........it's almost like being enveloped by the horse.
For my part, I try to create a field of energy which (hopefully) draws the horse to me, allowing us to achieve together.
That 'feel' helps me in all areas of my associations with horses and lets me keep things simple and progressive at the same time.
I never 'shout' at horses, either with my voice or my physical presence....I think that would only serve to upset and confuse them, and would certainly affect their trust in me.
That's only my interpretation of it...........drawn from my own experiences; I can't begin to imagine how a horse would see it, but it seems to work.
On the original topic, I have to say that with all the variations in the interpretations of countless methods/ideas of horsemanship, and all the different personalities and abilities (natural or otherwise) of the would be trainers of those many different breeds of horses which are so freely available to anyone and everyone these days, it is a fair guess that it would be impossible to say whether some breeds are more receptive to 'certain NH methods' than others.
A much more interesting subject for debate may be..........Are some humans better equipped, emotionally/instinctively/temperamentally, for teaching NH to horses?
A much more interesting subject for debate may be..........Are some humans better equipped, emotionally/instinctively/temperamentally, for teaching NH to horses?
Oh I use degrees of pressure all right, but the four phases, as described by Parelli, is a different thing altogether and, in my opinion, does not involve feel.
Why would you assume that I don't understand four phases; did it not occur to you that you may have misunderstood my answer?
The four phases in the Parelli sense use four different signals, and strengths of signal each phase, which has to be confusing for the horse, particularly when all four are used to teach one response.
What makes anyone think that if one has to go to phase four to teach a horse to back up, for instance, that the horse will automatically recognise that phases one, two, and three were connected in some way to phase four, and that he will have learned that he must respond to phase one in order to consequently be spared the other three?
It makes no sense at all to train a horse four different cues for one task, allowing him to misunderstand, or ignore each previous one, then have to train him 'backwards' to allow him to learn that phase one was what we wanted his correct (achieved by phase four) reaction to in the first place.
I use one phase, that is to say one signal/cue/call it what you will, with varying amounts of pressure according to the learning ability of the horse and the speed with which it complies.........therefor, if I have to use, on a scale of five, three 'units' of pressure, with the same cue, consistently until I get the correct reaction, I could reasonably expect that horse to need only one or two units to perform the task the next time I ask, provided my feel and timing was correct in the first instance. Equally, the next horse may need only one unit of pressure for the same result, and the next may need more.
What I don't do is change the cue and, therefor, the goal posts, each time I ask the horse to perform an identical task.............I ask him again the same way I asked him the first time, increasing the pressure until he gets it right, then rewarding him so that he associates one cue with one action with one reward. Thereafter, he, having learned that one cue means he must give one reaction, will be more keen to give when asked again, so all I have to do is reduce the amount of cue/pressure to hone his reaction...........I don't have to teach him the first three phases in reverse.
You are right in one sense...........I will never understand the need to use four phases to teach a horse one action.
Feel, for me anyway, is not a tangible thing to be felt through a rope. For me, feel is the ability to sense the energy changes within the horse, and to be able to anticipate his compliance before he decides or learns to give it, so that my timing of the release and the following reward may have a greater impact upon him.
When I'm loading so-called difficult horses, I can feel the energies fluctuating in the horse, and that is what allows me to judge when to ask for something, and when to accept that the horse is not ready to give.
The best way for me to describe that feeling is to say that I become totally tuned to the horse (to the point where I am unaware of almost everything else around) so that I imagine I am in close physical contact with him, and I'm able to bring him with me when I move up the ramp. Sometimes I don't even need my eyes to be open.........it's almost like being enveloped by the horse.
For my part, I try to create a field of energy which (hopefully) draws the horse to me, allowing us to achieve together.
That 'feel' helps me in all areas of my associations with horses and lets me keep things simple and progressive at the same time.
I never 'shout' at horses, either with my voice or my physical presence....I think that would only serve to upset and confuse them, and would certainly affect their trust in me.
That's only my interpretation of it...........drawn from my own experiences; I can't begin to imagine how a horse would see it, but it seems to work.
Awesome AO.. And everything you do, I do with horses aswell. I completely zone out when working with any horse, as I become so in the moment and feel so connected thst nothing else matters. My approach is simple and progressive. It is clear and concise. I understand about energy and can feel energy. Can feel it change in the moment and whether it a good energy or a negative one. My timing has become almost second nature and my feel is awesome IMO. But none of it perfect, never will be, I am not a horse.
Rope has nothing to do with feel, I agree. The rope is only a communication tool for that feel, then you build on that until you sometimes don't even need a rope for the communication of feel.
Re; the shouting issue. The horse would only become upset or confused if the 'shout' was delivered with the wrong intention. Maybe shout is the wrong term to use, but I know what I mean when I say that. I don't 'shout' unless I need to be clearer.
But all that can obviously achieved by many methods, and I don't think I did misunderstand your original answer, I just don't think you understand how using four phases can work, which is obvious by your above reply to my original comment.
You may not use 4 phases yourself to get the results you speak of, but that does not mean it does'nt work, and it certainly does not mean that if you use 4 phases you don't have feel.
4 phases make things easy, simple and clear.
Would like to also say that I don't often use phase 4 if I can possibly manage without it. I always give plenty of time to respond to 1,2 and 3 first. But am not afraid to go to 4 if it needed and never feel bad about doing it. My main aim, is phase 1, which is the opposite to the phase 4 'shout', it's the whisper. It's the mere suggestion, slight hint.
Awesome topic. Def think so myself. I was a rubbish human, ill equipped indeed was I to be effective. But I realised it, did someting about it, and in the process changed nearly everything about myself. During a few shall we say, turbulent years, I had lost my true self. Then an amazing horse reminded me of myself and showed me the way to find what I once had.
I have changed my emotionality, learned again to listen to my instinct and to trust it, and I have changed my temperament almost beyond recognition.
So, in conclusion, not all humans are suited to being real good effective horsemen/women, but if you want it bad enough and are willing and brave enough to look inside yourself, then I believe everyone can do it.
Ah Aengus, I probably do miss a lot, I'm kinda slow sometimes.
So you don't believe in using escalating aids. Now I understand what your trying to say. I've actually had occassion to use your concept myself. For me it depends on the situation and the horse. I've certainly spent enough time waiting for that elusive "first try" myself.
But taking the stuck feet scenerio, you would continue your aid/cue/pressure until the horse responded correctly, regardless of how long that took. I know many people that use the method successfully, just as I know many that use the escalation of pressure successfully. Mostly the folks I've learned from use both concepts at times. Parelli is certainly not the only successful trainer that uses escalating aids.
Keep on, keepin on
Jack
So you don't believe in using escalating aids. Now I understand what your trying to say. I've actually had occassion to use your concept myself. For me it depends on the situation and the horse. I've certainly spent enough time waiting for that elusive "first try" myself.
But taking the stuck feet scenerio, you would continue your aid/cue/pressure until the horse responded correctly, regardless of how long that took. I know many people that use the method successfully, just as I know many that use the escalation of pressure successfully. Mostly the folks I've learned from use both concepts at times. Parelli is certainly not the only successful trainer that uses escalating aids.
Keep on, keepin on
Jack
Aengus, what you say about creating an "energy" field is interesting.
That little piebald you saw at the RHS could detect an energy field a mile off. He was not the easiest, most laid back pony to train. (often the more difficult to train, the more talented the horse I have found) He is sharp, quick and very clever.
We had a lass working for us a while back whose energy field was strange. I have a video I found the other day of him and her in his early days of training.
I had been schooling him for about 15 minutes and he was working calmly and sensibly, he is a pony who needs little imput, put in a tiny amount you get huge amounts out of him. Shout or use too much and he'll be in the next county.
Anyway, the minute this lass came near him it all went **** up. You wouldn't think that having the wrong "energy" sitting in the passenger seat of a cart could affect a horse so hugely would you?
Nothing we did after that was calm or sensible, he went round the school in a silly canter/tölty thing.
I made sure she was kept busy somewhere else after that.......
That little piebald you saw at the RHS could detect an energy field a mile off. He was not the easiest, most laid back pony to train. (often the more difficult to train, the more talented the horse I have found) He is sharp, quick and very clever.
We had a lass working for us a while back whose energy field was strange. I have a video I found the other day of him and her in his early days of training.
I had been schooling him for about 15 minutes and he was working calmly and sensibly, he is a pony who needs little imput, put in a tiny amount you get huge amounts out of him. Shout or use too much and he'll be in the next county.
Anyway, the minute this lass came near him it all went **** up. You wouldn't think that having the wrong "energy" sitting in the passenger seat of a cart could affect a horse so hugely would you?
Nothing we did after that was calm or sensible, he went round the school in a silly canter/tölty thing.
I made sure she was kept busy somewhere else after that.......
I had to go back and read every single post just now to understand what happened with this thread, but its definitely turned into an interesting discussion .
.
I agree, and for my part I think there is no doubt that some humans are better equipped than others.
As they have been breeding horses for specific temperaments for years and in recent times evaluating the temperament as part of a breeds grading in some cases, I would say there is but which breeds to which NH methods from the plethora available I wouldn’t know.
As do some that there is not always a need for pressure.
But in reality this type of horsemanship is about making what you don’t want more difficult/uncomfortable/unpleasant it revolves around the use of pressure.
So the training revolves around the horse choosing to do something because if it does not something less pleasant will happen, rather than a horse choosing to do something based on it wanting to because of the relationship with the handler/rider.
IME if the reason for the horse’s actions is based on a relationship the horse will go the extra mile.
IMO horsemanship is about relationships, it’s about communication (asking the horse what you want from it) and relationships (the horse wanting to do it based on the relationship with the handler\rider) if it then requires an action to persuade the horse to comply rather than just asking again (which is going to be required sometimes and the need for a second ask can tell you about the horse at that time, mentally or physically) it’s a different type of horsemanship in my mind.
The way dolphins are trained is very interesting and adds another angle on the way animals can be trained without pressure with similarities to clicker training.
Of course different uses for the horse will limit the training options open, a professional horse producer is not going to be able to put several years of work into a relationship, it’s uneconomical and if they did they probably would have to much emotional investment in the horse to sell it anyway.
As do some that there is not always a need for pressure.
But in reality this type of horsemanship is about making what you don’t want more difficult/uncomfortable/unpleasant it revolves around the use of pressure.
So the training revolves around the horse choosing to do something because if it does not something less pleasant will happen, rather than a horse choosing to do something based on it wanting to because of the relationship with the handler/rider.
IME if the reason for the horse’s actions is based on a relationship the horse will go the extra mile.
IMO horsemanship is about relationships, it’s about communication (asking the horse what you want from it) and relationships (the horse wanting to do it based on the relationship with the handler\rider) if it then requires an action to persuade the horse to comply rather than just asking again (which is going to be required sometimes and the need for a second ask can tell you about the horse at that time, mentally or physically) it’s a different type of horsemanship in my mind.
The way dolphins are trained is very interesting and adds another angle on the way animals can be trained without pressure with similarities to clicker training.
Of course different uses for the horse will limit the training options open, a professional horse producer is not going to be able to put several years of work into a relationship, it’s uneconomical and if they did they probably would have to much emotional investment in the horse to sell it anyway.
Using methods based on learning theory then most, if not all, horses would be receptive to a method using primarily positive reinforcement with some negative reinforcement to make the learning process easier.
There's an excellent book coming out in the next few months which looks at learning theory and how horse's learn. It discusses the differences of negative and positive reinforcement and punishment, why they work, why they don't work and the pros and cons of each.
Some of the popular 'nh' methods, for example, start too high up on the scale, imo, so that when a stronger 'ask' is required or even punishment in the 'oh crap' situations then you have to do far more than if you started lower down the scale.
The best example is getting a horse to back up (which is something that most 'nh' methods do). Why would the cue for 'back up' be wiggling the rope at the horse when you can teach it from a verbal command or from, for example, a finger point or even a feather light touch on the chest? If you start from the rope wiggling then where do you go if they won't/can't back up? If you start from something like the verbal command or a light touch on the chest then the rope wiggle is something that stops them in their tracks and tells them very firmly 'NO' without them being wacked by the clip or even hit on the head with a stick.
Some nh methods which work almost solely on negative reinforcement (with punishment at the higher levels) can have an adverse effect on horses, either shutting them down so that they don't react, making them robotic so that they comply but do not show personality (or aren't allowed an opinion) or even cause them to fight back if they're more dominant. I've heard countless cases of dominant mares who rear at their handlers at a certain point in the programme.
The problem with the 'horsenality' is that it doesn't have any firm basis in science and doesn't take account of how the horse's brain actually works.
There's an excellent book coming out in the next few months which looks at learning theory and how horse's learn. It discusses the differences of negative and positive reinforcement and punishment, why they work, why they don't work and the pros and cons of each.
Some of the popular 'nh' methods, for example, start too high up on the scale, imo, so that when a stronger 'ask' is required or even punishment in the 'oh crap' situations then you have to do far more than if you started lower down the scale.
The best example is getting a horse to back up (which is something that most 'nh' methods do). Why would the cue for 'back up' be wiggling the rope at the horse when you can teach it from a verbal command or from, for example, a finger point or even a feather light touch on the chest? If you start from the rope wiggling then where do you go if they won't/can't back up? If you start from something like the verbal command or a light touch on the chest then the rope wiggle is something that stops them in their tracks and tells them very firmly 'NO' without them being wacked by the clip or even hit on the head with a stick.
Some nh methods which work almost solely on negative reinforcement (with punishment at the higher levels) can have an adverse effect on horses, either shutting them down so that they don't react, making them robotic so that they comply but do not show personality (or aren't allowed an opinion) or even cause them to fight back if they're more dominant. I've heard countless cases of dominant mares who rear at their handlers at a certain point in the programme.
The problem with the 'horsenality' is that it doesn't have any firm basis in science and doesn't take account of how the horse's brain actually works.
old_woman
a VERY senior citizen
I own one of them - bought at a bargain price from a very frightened owner/handler who was following the steps of the programme. She's proven to be a total doll for me, after the first couple of days.
I just ignore her or laugh at her when she is 'naughty' (as we, not the horse, understands it) - which is rarely; impatience is her biggest bugaboo - and ask VERY quietly, clearly and politely for anything I want her to do.
Last edited:
My Welsh loves 'talking to me' via natural horsemanship, and will happily do anything for you.
My Shettie on the other hand, will do some of it, but wears an expression of disgust through the entire time. You get the feeling that he doesn't see the point - leave me to the grass! He makes me laugh, and in general, he'll happily play games if he likes what you're doing. Rolling barrels down the field, yes: Parelli circling game, I'd rather not.
My Shettie on the other hand, will do some of it, but wears an expression of disgust through the entire time. You get the feeling that he doesn't see the point - leave me to the grass! He makes me laugh, and in general, he'll happily play games if he likes what you're doing. Rolling barrels down the field, yes: Parelli circling game, I'd rather not.
So, she was not following the programme because she had caused a brace in the horse by using inappropriate phases for that horse and/or not being clear enough in her requests. Once you took over and introduced a quiet phase one and clear requests the mare responded as she should. That sounds like a mismatch of horse and human to me rather than a failing on the part of 'the programme'
Lucky bargain for you though old_woman
a VERY senior citizen
So, she was not following the programme because she had caused a brace in the horse by using inappropriate phases for that horse and/or not being clear enough in her requests. Once you took over and introduced a quiet phase one and clear requests the mare responded as she should. That sounds like a mismatch of horse and human to me rather than a failing on the part of 'the programme'
I don't know what you are talking about with these 'phases', appropriate or otherwise, and the mare has no 'braces' that I can see - either on her teeth or holding up her trousers
I am with AO in this respect.I ask politely and quietly and in return I expect - and almost invariably get - a quiet and polite response. This works equally well with both horse and human.
The person I bought the mare off was following a popular, and somewhat expensive, on-going home study programme step by step, was a club member, had lessons, and so on and so forth.
Indeed I did get a bargain. I might get another one from the same person later this year, the way things are going.
newrider.com