Are different breeds more receptive to certain NH methods?

I don't know what you are talking about with these 'phases', appropriate or otherwise, and the mare has no 'braces' that I can see - either on her teeth or holding up her trousers :D:D I am with AO in this respect.
Apologies - in plain English as best I can . . .

'phases' = levels of pressure or, if you prefer, degree of insistence in your 'ask' (aid). Sounds like the lady you speak of was using too much pressure for that particular horse, hence I described it as using inappropriate phases. It sounded as though she was doing the equivalent of shouting when all she needed to do was whisper.

'brace' = resistance on the part of the horse to doing what it is being asked eg rearing, napping, leaning on the rein etc. etc.

I ask politely and quietly and in return I expect - and almost invariably get - a quiet and polite response. This works equally well with both horse and human.
As do all good communicators. What do you do on the odd occasion when you do not get a quiet and polite response I wonder?

The person I bought the mare off was following a popular, and somewhat expensive, on-going home study programme step by step, was a club member, had lessons, and so on and so forth.
Just because it wasn't working for her does not mean that it does not work. I can't play the piano despite having had expensive equipment, on-going home study materials, lessons etc. etc. that does not mean that the methods and materials were no good, just that I did not have the understanding, application or enthusiasm to become a great (or even mediocre) pianist :eek:

Indeed I did get a bargain. I might get another one from the same person later this year, the way things are going.
Every cloud :D
 
But in reality this type of horsemanship is about making what you don’t want more difficult/uncomfortable/unpleasant it revolves around the use of pressure.

Why should the pressure be unpleasant? There are many ways of applying pressure, not necessarily through direct contact. When I work my horse in liberty if she does not respond to my ask because she has become distracted by something I will "step-up" my body language, I would call this pressure.

IME if the reason for the horse’s actions is based on a relationship the horse will go the extra mile.

Very much so...
 
'brace' = resistance on the part of the horse to doing what it is being asked eg rearing, napping, leaning on the rein etc. etc.

Yeh, and you can "feel" it. :) And every horse and every rider experiences braces sometimes. In the reining world, a swishing tail is considered a brace.

There are many ways of applying pressure, not necessarily through direct contact.

Yeh man, pressure comes in all sizes and colors. :) Bill Dorrance (and hence Leslie Desmond) spend a lot of time talking about "indirect" and "direct" pressure. "Steady" and "rythmatic" are also other terms and methods I hear of often.

Bill Dorrance also talks about "overloading" a horse a lot. He admits freely that sooner or later "every" horse will become "mentally overloaded". He inspires us to use that energy constructively. A whole different type of "feel" comes into play in those instances though.

Just some thoughts, :)


Keep on, keepin on

Jack
 
Why should the pressure be unpleasant? There are many ways of applying pressure, not necessarily through direct contact. When I work my horse in liberty if she does not respond to my ask because she has become distracted by something I will "step-up" my body language, I would call this pressure.

Never said there wasn’t many types of pressure but all of them cause what ever the horse is doing (which you don’t want it to do, be that not paying attention or whatever) to be more difficult or uncomfortable or unpleasant to continue.
 
What ? Can't they just use regular words that already have a meaning, like rhythmic, instead of inventing new ones and obfuscating the whole communication process.


But she's spot on, prioritize is another one, there is a perfectly good figure of speech, why invent and ugly word like that?
 
Yeh, and you can "feel" it. :) And every horse and every rider experiences braces sometimes. In the reining world, a swishing tail is considered a brace. Jack
Good point, a brace can be a 'mental brace' as well as a physical one, often evidenced by tail swishing, head snaking, ear pinning etc.
 
Well since I guess I invented “rythmatic”, I will comment. I’m not an example of perfection and my language/communications skills are lacking, but

What ? Can't they just use regular words that already have a meaning, like rhythmic, instead of inventing new ones and obfuscating the whole communication process.

Proper language also includes punctuation and the proper use of pronouns. Spelling is just one part of the story. For instance, who are the “they” that you refer to in this sentence?

Here’s another example. Maybe one of our language experts could help us find some errors in this sentence?

But she's spot on, prioritize is another one, there is a perfectly good figure of speech, why invent and ugly word like that?


A couple of years ago I suffered severe neurological injury. I remember a period of time when I couldn’t spell my own name, recognize printed letters, of find my way home. Today I’m very grateful for the ability to comprehend even the most basic communications. For this I think God everyday!

I apologize for getting off the topic of horses but would respectively ask that folks forgive my written mistakes. “I know I’m stupid but I’m trying to keep it a secret”! :)

“obfuscating the whole communications process”,

Yep, that’s what a brace does. :rolleyes:


Keep on, keeping on

Jack
 
Yes, but variety is the spice of life :) and communication is the important thing, not semantics surely?


Amen to that!! so as not to offend anyone, I reckon maybe sticking to thread topic rather than pulling posts apart because of spelling or grammar errors would be a good idea. No one is perfect, no one on here spells perfectly all the time or uses grammar brilliantly each time they write.

When Jack wrote rythmatic pressure, I straight away understood what he meant. I knew he meant to write rythmic, but the spelling error was irrelevant, his comments are not. He has some excellent observations about horsemanship, and I am more interested in them than anything else, cos this, as I have pointed out soooo many times before, is a forum for discussion about horses.
 
Amen to that!! so as not to offend anyone, I reckon maybe sticking to thread topic rather than pulling posts apart because of spelling or grammar errors would be a good idea. No one is perfect, no one on here spells perfectly all the time or uses grammar brilliantly each time they write.

I disagree, the way people communicate and what they have to say has told me more about them and therefore their horsemanship than when they talk about horsemanship, helps you evaluate what they say when they talk about horses, don’t stop the communicating.

When Jack wrote rythmatic pressure, I straight away understood what he meant. I knew he meant to write rythmic, but the spelling error was irrelevant, his comments are not. He has some excellent observations about horsemanship, and I am more interested in them than anything else, cos this, as I have pointed out soooo many times before, is a forum for discussion about horses.

Can’t say I was sure myself, I know a few guys from that part of the world and it’s not always easy to understand what they mean, even when you know what the words mean, some times what they say is deeper than the works themselves.
 
in plain English as best I can . . .
'phases' = levels of pressure or, if you prefer, degree of insistence in your 'ask' (aid).

Hmm - odd terminology for plain English ;) - there is no such term as 'your ask' in English, plain or otherwise. 'Your question' or 'your request', certainly; 'Your asking' is also a possibility; 'your ask' is not. It's a bit like the word 'rythmatic' mentioned by Kate Wooten. With English being the de-facto language of international communication, we do non-mother-tongue speakers a disservice by using anything other than correct English, whether that is correct American, Australian, British, Indian, or any other English.

However, back to the subject in hand - I rarely use actual physical pressure and concomitant release as a primary means of instruction, command or request when I am on the ground. I use mainly simple verbal and body-language cues. I also do everything I can to minimise or avoid the escalation of any requests, whatever form that request takes. Neither do I 'insist' on anything; instead I expect it. I find expectation to be much more successful than insistence, and far easier!

What do you do on the odd occasion when you do not get a quiet and polite response I wonder?

I had to think hard about how to explain this, as my off-the-cuff answer was 'it depends'. The (not nearly) full answer is very long, but in essence is still 'it depends' ... so here goes.

Gaining the attention of a noisy, rude and disruptive child - or even class of children - is not best done by shouting, but by whispering. One does not effectively quieten – other than for the briefest moment - a barking dog by yelling at it. It is the same with horses, except that they are not noisy in the sense that we, as humans, understand 'noise'. 'Shouting' at the horse – whether literally or metaphorically - is not the way to grab its attention in any situation other than the most dire of emergencies, and certainly not the way to encourage learning, or a quiet and polite response from the horse.

When I do not get a quiet and polite positive response, I will not follow up with being noisy and impolite myself. My best, and first, human teacher of riding and horsemanship – an elderly man – always told me, and I believe him to this day, that the horse is the mirror of the man. I would prefer to see a pleasant and polite reflection, not an ignorant gobby one!

My usual response to a horse's 'rude' behaviour (again, other than in an emergency situation) is to turn my back and ignore both the behaviour and the horse. I also make great use of my other horses as 'good examples', and ensure that whatever I ask a horse to do is easy and comfortable.

It is a little more complex than that, of course, and presupposes that the horse has learned, and now recognises very clearly, that being near me and interacting with me is a very good and advantageous place to be and thing to do.

I also consider that there is a great – huge! - difference between getting a response which in human terms would be 'NO! Why the f**k should I?' and a response which, again in human terms, would be 'Eh? yer w0t?', 'No, I can't', 'Hang on, that's scary!' or 'What? How? I don't understand'.
The latter group of responses are solely the result of my inefficient communication methods, and demand that I look at my behaviour, not that of the horse.
The former response may be the result of inefficient communication on my part, or may result from a previous experience of the horse in question.

Whichever, I do not consider that former response is appropriate or acceptable, so I merely ignore it, walk away or turn my back, and shortly thereafter ask clearly and quietly for something which I know will be given willingly, and praise abundantly for it.

Depending on what question was answered 'rudely', and how, and the horse's background, I may well not ask that specific question again for a significant period of time – hours, days or even weeks. I will ensure that the horse is giving me soft, eager and willing responses to a series of related requests before slipping in the request that has earlier received the rude response.

Some people will say 'how about dangerous kickers, or biters, or a horse that charges you in the field – how can you avoid fights and arguments and escalations in that sort of situation?'
Well, sometimes you can't, and of course your own and other people's safety must come first if a horse exhibits dangerous behaviour.

Confrontation is rarely a good idea – it merely confirms us as predator and the horse, who we wish to be a companion, as prey. However. I am not the least bit afraid of confronting a horse WHEN NECESSARY.

I am, though, of the opinion that much, or even most, 'dangerous' behaviour can and indeed should be merely avoided; situations can usually be engineered to increase or even ensure the safety of the human without disturbing the horse in any way, and if the trigger which causes the dangerous behaviour can be identified – as it usually can, with observation, unless the horse has a physical or psychiatric illness – then it can also be avoided or modified.

I try never to argue with a horse until we know each other very well indeed. It takes two to argue, and if one party does not react, the argument dies a natural death. By the time an argument might prove appropriate and constructive, my new equine friend and I will be able to have the argument without any rancour - as one has friendly arguments with trusted friends - and I will win as I am the one who gets to pick the argument! I am also very good at arguing quietly and persistently, and putting my point across clearly and unambiguously. If a situation arises where a new horse insists on arguing with me, then I simply avoid that situation for a while, essential health care excepted of course – in which case I will use whatever means may be necessary to enforce the care, be they physical or pharmacological.

I can't play the piano ... that does not mean that the methods and materials were no good, just that I did not have the understanding, application or enthusiasm to become a great (or even mediocre) pianist

Of course we cannot all become world-class 'whatevers'. However, I am of the opinion that the great majority of us can become competent at most things, given a modicum of understanding, application and enthusiasm, and appropriate tuition of a type that suits our learning style and life style. The lady concerned has a great deal more than merely a modicum of the above requirements, as well as a great deal of time.

Regarding the piano, I am sure that if you had really wished to learn to play competently, you would have been able to do so, given suitable materials and teacher. However, I am equally sure that neither a home-study course on piano-playing, nor any half-decent piano teacher would leave you with the impression that you would be able to learn musical competence on an untuned piano, would they? I do wonder quite where so many people get the impression that they can learn 'natural horsemanship' of ANY brand by following one of these programmes on, or with, the equine equivalent of an untuned piano.

The silver lining will – probably - be a nice Welsh Sec D mare; the cloud is that she is rather large for 5ft, 8 stone me. Other than my faithful Arab, who I have had for ten years now, and will be with me until the end of my or her days, whichever comes first, nowadays I don't want anything over 13.2hh – too much like hard work!
 
Last edited:
different types of horses.

Hi HashRouge, The book "What Horses Reveal" by Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling -is exellent for describing different which breeds are best for what. It also explains the different character types of horses which appear in all breeds, -:)and how to recognise them. And there is much much more about horses which one cannot find in ordinarly horse books.
 
Why should the pressure be unpleasant?
Are there any kinds of pressure that are pleasant for a horse? Isn't it the case that pressure works because the horse is motivated to avoid or reduce it (and will therefore do so, if she can see how)?

A horse may respond to much smaller pressures than we would consider unpleasant, because he is that much more sensitive or tuned in to the particular kind of pressure being used. Just because we consider it trivial or insignificant doesn't mean the horse does too.

On the other hand, just because a horse finds pressure from us unpleasant doesn't mean we are wrong to using it - I think that depends on the severity of its effect on the horse and whether we reject less unpleasant alternatives for no good reason.

Jack's "Enough" is right - it has to be - but if one person's "enough" is very different from another's, are both equally good?
 
Are there any kinds of pressure that are pleasant for a horse? Isn't it the case that pressure works because the horse is motivated to avoid or reduce it (and will therefore do so, if she can see how)?

"Pleasant pressure", can I coin that phrase? :) It's often quoted that a horse is naturally a "into pressure animal". I find myself picturing that dang horsefly again. My horses sure seem to "pleasantly" anticipate that pressure.


Enough" is right - it has to be - but if one person's "enough" is very different from another's, are both equally good?

What if one horses "enough" is very different from another's (human or horse), are they both equally good? :)


I suspect that horses are very aware of "intent" whenever pressure is present.

Keep on, keepin on

Jack
 
Hmm - odd terminology for plain English ;) - there is no such term as 'your ask' in English, plain or otherwise.
You will admit however, that I did say 'as best I can'. Obviously I do not measure up to your perception of what constitutes plain English (I did not say 'correct' you'll notice), but I was actually attempting to avoid further off topic discussions about semantics :)

However, back to the subject in hand - I rarely use actual physical pressure and concomitant release as a primary means of instruction, command or request when I am on the ground. I use mainly simple verbal and body-language cues. I also do everything I can to minimise or avoid the escalation of any requests, whatever form that request takes. Neither do I 'insist' on anything; instead I expect it.
So, like Mark Rashid, whose horses are trained to work from his 'intent'?


I had to think hard about how to explain this, as my off-the-cuff answer was 'it depends'. The (not nearly) full answer is very long, but in essence is still 'it depends'
Your off the cuff answer is worth saying though because 'it depends' is the natural place to start. I have heard it suggested that horses are like snowflakes - no two exactly the same, therefore no one answer can possibly fit all.

Gaining the attention of a noisy, rude and disruptive child - or even class of children - is not best done by shouting, but by whispering.
or indeed by waiting silently with the air of expectation :)

One does not effectively quieten - a barking dog by yelling at it. It is the same with horses, except that they are not noisy in the sense that we, as humans, understand 'noise'.
I love the concept of horses not being 'noisy in the sense that we understand noise', it implys that they can be 'noisy' on a totally different level, therefore the responsibility is on us to tune in to that level to communicate. I think this is one of the reasons that NH puts so much emphasis on body language, in an attempt to teach people this. However, it is a concept that humans find difficult to grasp and they tend to rely on gross motor skills rather than subtle signals.

When I do not get a quiet and polite positive response, I will not follow up with being noisy and impolite myself. My best, and first, human teacher of riding and horsemanship – an elderly man – always told me, and I believe him to this day, that the horse is the mirror of the man.
Absolutely, your horse is your mirror, a concept that NH is also trying to get into the modern arena.

My usual response to a horse's 'rude' behaviour (again, other than in an emergency situation) is to turn my back and ignore both the behaviour and the horse. I also make great use of my other horses as 'good examples', and ensure that whatever I ask a horse to do is easy and comfortable.
It fascinates me what a difference it makes if horses are surrounded by others who set 'good examples'. I feel very grateful that my two youngsters started life in herds with sensible, easy to catch and friendly mares, geldings and stallion. I have no doubt that they 'observe and digest' all that goes on around them.

It is a little more complex than that, of course, and presupposes that the horse has learned, and now recognises very clearly, that being near me and interacting with me is a very good and advantageous place to be and thing to do.
A big assumption in some horse/human relationships and book-length topic in itself, but be interested to hear how you achieve this.

I also consider that there is a great – huge! - difference between getting a response which in human terms would be 'NO! Why the f**k should I?' and a response which, again in human terms, would be 'Eh? yer w0t?', 'No, I can't', 'Hang on, that's scary!' or 'What? How? I don't understand'.
The latter group of responses are solely the result of my inefficient communication methods, and demand that I look at my behaviour, not that of the horse.
The former response may be the result of inefficient communication on my part, or may result from a previous experience of the horse in question.
Couldn't agree more, if communications break down between horse and human and things aren't going according to plan then the human should be looking at themselves, not blaming the horses.

Whichever, I do not consider that former response is appropriate or acceptable, so I merely ignore it, walk away or turn my back, and shortly thereafter ask clearly and quietly for something which I know will be given willingly, and praise abundantly for it.
Ignoring unwanted behaviour and setting yourself and your horse up for success is such a positive way to proceed, can't think why some people don't seem to get that.

Depending on what question was answered 'rudely', and how, and the horse's background, I may well not ask that specific question again for a significant period of time – hours, days or even weeks. I will ensure that the horse is giving me soft, eager and willing responses to a series of related requests before slipping in the request that has earlier received the rude response.
Advance and retreat and splitting tasks down into small, related and manageable pieces are all a part of the well marketed NH programme that I susupect your lady friend has been following.

Confrontation is rarely a good idea – it merely confirms us as predator and the horse, who we wish to be a companion, as prey. However. I am not the least bit afraid of confronting a horse WHEN NECESSARY.

I am, though, of the opinion that much, or even most, 'dangerous' behaviour can and indeed should be merely avoided; situations can usually be engineered to increase or even ensure the safety of the human without disturbing the horse in any way, and if the trigger which causes the dangerous behaviour can be identified – as it usually can, with observation, unless the horse has a physical or psychiatric illness – then it can also be avoided or modified.

I try never to argue with a horse until we know each other very well indeed. It takes two to argue, and if one party does not react, the argument dies a natural death. By the time an argument might prove appropriate and constructive, my new equine friend and I will be able to have the argument without any rancour - as one has friendly arguments with trusted friends - and I will win as I am the one who gets to pick the argument! I am also very good at arguing quietly and persistently, and putting my point across clearly and unambiguously. If a situation arises where a new horse insists on arguing with me, then I simply avoid that situation for a while, essential health care excepted of course – in which case I will use whatever means may be necessary to enforce the care, be they physical or pharmacological.
Couldn't agree more, diplomacy is the better part of valour and all that.

Of course we cannot all become world-class 'whatevers'. However, I am of the opinion that the great majority of us can become competent at most things, given a modicum of understanding, application and enthusiasm, and appropriate tuition of a type that suits our learning style and life style. The lady concerned has a great deal more than merely a modicum of the above requirements, as well as a great deal of time.
But she's obviously not 'got it' since the outcomes are not as they should be for her and her horse(s) :confused: Maybe, NH is not for her, perhaps it does not suit her 'learning style and life style' in a way she needs - it doesn't suit everyone and there's no reason why it should.

Regarding the piano, I am sure that if you had really wished to learn to play competently, you would have been able to do so, given suitable materials and teacher. However, I am equally sure that neither a home-study course on piano-playing, nor any half-decent piano teacher would leave you with the impression that you would be able to learn musical competence on an untuned piano, would they? I do wonder quite where so many people get the impression that they can learn 'natural horsemanship' of ANY brand by following one of these programmes on, or with, the equine equivalent of an untuned piano.
Ah! So, actually this lady is buying unsuitable horses in the first place? In what way are they 'untuned' I wonder? I think it takes a specialist to tune a piano or a horse, although I could argue that there is more leaway when training a horse. With a horse there are shades of grey according to the level of achievement that you are prepared to accept, with the pitch of a piano it is somewhat 'black and white' :D

The silver lining will – probably - be a nice Welsh Sec D mare; the cloud is that she is rather large for 5ft, 8 stone me. Other than my faithful Arab, who I have had for ten years now, and will be with me until the end of my or her days, whichever comes first, nowadays I don't want anything over 13.2hh – too much like hard work!
Small is beautiful then :)

Interesting thread, thanks for the lengthy response OW.
 
horses for courses

The book "What Horses Reveal" by Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling is very good on this subject, it also tells us about how different breeds have different types within thier individual breed. Very interesting. :)
 
NH and different breeds

Would love to watch Monty Roberts or Kelly Marks Join up with my 4.5 yr old Shettie!! It would be entertaining if nothing else.
 
To return to the original question posed in the title of the thread, I think that it is not unreasonable to believe that different breeds of horses WILL show variations in their temperaments, abilities and preferences, just as they show differences in their outward, physical appearances. Thus it can be expected that they will respond, in the most general terms, differently - not necessarily 'better' or 'worse' - to differing styles of training.

If we look at dogs, it is clear that there is a huge variation in temperament and talents between different breeds - compare, for example, the Border Collie with the Beagle, or the Golden Retriever with the Greyhound. It would seem somewhat bizarre to see a beagle herding a flock of sheep, or a greyhound at the pheasant shoot - and it would be even more bizarre for dogs of those breeds to actually have the innate ability to carry out the tasks with any degree of efficiency.

Horses, of course, have not been domesticated anything like as long as have dogs, so there is not as much degree of variance in their man-made breeds as there is with dogs - but variation certainly exists.

The variations of temperament and innate ability within a breed of horse, though, are certainly as great - or greater than - the difference between two 'average' members of two different breeds, so it will be difficult, perhaps impossible, to categorise temperament and ability in breeds of horse with any degree of reliability or reproducibility, as we often can with breeds of dog - ie generalising about breeds of dog is likely to be more accurate than generalising about breeds of horses.
 
Last edited:
newrider.com