Who was it recently pointed out that 'a well-timed slap' is an oxymoron... if it was timed well, we wouldn't have needed the slap !
(sometimes I need a well-timed slap
)
(sometimes I need a well-timed slap
)
Carrot Stick Force??
- Thread starter NoviceNic
- Start date
Hmmm I see them as different. Thing is...how would the horse see it? from his point of view he would know that you slapped him or kicked him but does he associate the pressure from the halter as coming directly from you? With the halter you have the pressure and then the release of the pressure...with body language you put pressure on and then release when you get the desired behaviour but when you hit or slap.....do you keep hitting and slapping until you get the response you are looking for from the horse ?
Y
Yann
Guest
To a degree it is a matter of taste and personal preference, like I said, each to their own. The stick here isn't just being used as a signal, but also to apply pressure and possibly even inflict pain to get a response. That has a lot of negative connotations both for people and horses. We all know what can happen if a horse is hit in the face on a regular basis.
If a training halter is being used correctly then any move in the right direction should give the horse a release.
If a training halter is being used correctly then any move in the right direction should give the horse a release.
it's a pretty forceful medium though - my hardest possible wallop with a hand (on the neck/body, not the face) can't cause nearly as much pain as those knotted halters on a pressure point at the poll with even a smallish tug.
whether it's through a medium or direct contact has never seemed much of a distinction to me - what matters to me is the type of pressure - flat hand vs pokey finger, wide web headcollar vs knotted halter, snaffle vs chifney, calf vs spur, and my force and intent. i know the difference between a tug on a snaffle and the same tug on a chifney, or my finger poking into their side to ask them to move over compared to the flat of my hand pushing.
i've experimented with the pressure halters and i don't like them one bit.
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Who was it recently pointed out that 'a well-timed slap' is an oxymoron... if it was timed well, we wouldn't have needed the slap !
(sometimes I need a well-timed slap
Exactly...I can't remember now who said that but it is so true
The trick is to see what is going to happen before it happens and press the reset button before the horse commits the crime. Can't be charged as guilty for his thoughts...just the deedsNoviceNic, what are you trying to achieve? Are you trying to improve your ground handling a bit, or are you aiming to work through the Parelli levels?
If you don't want your horse tapped on the face with a stick, then tell the trainer that they are not to do it. And ask them to show you another way of asking them to yield their forequarters (which I'm guessing is what you are trying to do?).
Any trainer worth their salt will know more than one way to explain what they want to a horse.
If you are planning on working through Parelli, then you are going to be expected to "drive" the front end away with your stick. And you will be taught to do that by increasing phases of pressure, which means that if your horse doesn't take notice the stick will eventually hit whatever part of the body isn't moving. You could borrow and watch the level 1 DVD's (new version of level 1) and that would give you an idea of what to expect.
I wonder how your horse would feel if you put a plastic bag on the end of your stick, to rattle? And then took it off when they understood to move away from the raised stick? Just one option that springs to mind.
When people start to do "Carrot Stick Riding" with no reins, this is one yield that they need to work.
If you don't want your horse tapped on the face with a stick, then tell the trainer that they are not to do it. And ask them to show you another way of asking them to yield their forequarters (which I'm guessing is what you are trying to do?).
Any trainer worth their salt will know more than one way to explain what they want to a horse.
If you are planning on working through Parelli, then you are going to be expected to "drive" the front end away with your stick. And you will be taught to do that by increasing phases of pressure, which means that if your horse doesn't take notice the stick will eventually hit whatever part of the body isn't moving. You could borrow and watch the level 1 DVD's (new version of level 1) and that would give you an idea of what to expect.
I wonder how your horse would feel if you put a plastic bag on the end of your stick, to rattle? And then took it off when they understood to move away from the raised stick? Just one option that springs to mind.
When people start to do "Carrot Stick Riding" with no reins, this is one yield that they need to work.
well M i don't use pressure halters with knots, just a home made one, a loopy affair that you can adjust to fit many heads, which is why i find them so handy having horses/ponies with pony heads to ex full head sizes.
i don't use it in an NH way, just as a handy all size head collar.
i still maintain the distinction between a direct slap and force through a medium though
i don't use it in an NH way, just as a handy all size head collar.
i still maintain the distinction between a direct slap and force through a medium though
Y
Yann
Guest
You only need a training halter initially to give you an advantage over a much larger and stronger animal. If Nic attempted to do the same exercises with Captain in a headcollar he'd probably take her for a ski. Once you've gained that initial level of understanding in the horse though you can either discard it or continue to use it very lightly as you're able to give more subtle signals.
Not keen on ones that tighten over the poll though, they appear to have a tendency to make horses rear over backwards.
Not keen on ones that tighten over the poll though, they appear to have a tendency to make horses rear over backwards.
this is a bit of a side track issue isn't it? we all know full well mankind is more than capable of creating all sorts of gimmick gadgets that will force the horse to bend to our will through the use of fear and pain.
gadgets that are much more powerful than just pitting our feeble strength against that of the horse.
the aim is surely to communicate with the horse in a partnership? well that's my aim anyhow.
you don't need to inflict pain for that.
eta i'm not saying a slap is worse than inflictin pain with a knotted headcollar M, i'm sure the misuse of one of those things can inflict serious pain. i just think the horse wil percieve a slap differently,because it is different
gadgets that are much more powerful than just pitting our feeble strength against that of the horse.
the aim is surely to communicate with the horse in a partnership? well that's my aim anyhow.
you don't need to inflict pain for that.
eta i'm not saying a slap is worse than inflictin pain with a knotted headcollar M, i'm sure the misuse of one of those things can inflict serious pain. i just think the horse wil percieve a slap differently,because it is different
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Interesting, I don't use a "pressure halter", nor a chain over the nose etc. I don't use them because I don't need them. Just a cheap nylon halter and some "feel" goes a long way.
No bullying here, just an insistance on respect and communication between the horse and human. I know they "can" kick me and they know I can "whack" them. It's a choice we are both aware of, and we respect each other enough that it's never an issue. Fact is, I probably hit them harder when desensitizing them to something, than I do when sensitizing.
I like to throw things at my horses. Balls, saddle pads, ropes etc., is that cruel as well? Will it make them headshy if I throw things at their head? Throwing things at them sounds like a cruel practice much like hitting them does. In both cases, it's the manner/reason that determine that question. Not the act itself.
Have fun, be safe
Jack
http://www.horsesplay.us/phpBB2/index.php
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We all have different ideas on what type of pressure we want to use with our horses so I guess I would just recommend that if something doesn't feel right to you Nic? then it isn't right...you are Captains caregiver and his advocate......find something that you are comfortable with.
NoviceNic have you read any of Mark Rashid's books? Perfect time of year to catch up on horsey books.....
You may or may not know I went along a similar path to the one you are currently on- in summary I bought a 'blank sheet' 4 year old cob after years of sharing and loaning and working as a teen at a riding school, he was soooo cool for 6 months then he decided he was alpha and gave me and his field companions sh*t 24/7.
I was at a NH yard thankfully where the people running it used an eclectic mix of PP, Rashid, Halfpenny, Marks and other to get the best out of the various horses there. If I hadnt done NH with Archer I would have sold him 2 years ago, I used a pressure halter (you can ride him in it now) and a carrot stick ( but I never waved it at his face) it was all about a little mutual repect, common sense, and getting my horse to trust my judgement.
Sorry if I've gone a little OT but I wanted you to know that I've been where you are and approached it the same way, but if you are worried about Captain becoming headshy you must either change trainers or ask them to change that particular element of the technique.
Best of luck hun
Hackedoff
You may or may not know I went along a similar path to the one you are currently on- in summary I bought a 'blank sheet' 4 year old cob after years of sharing and loaning and working as a teen at a riding school, he was soooo cool for 6 months then he decided he was alpha and gave me and his field companions sh*t 24/7.
I was at a NH yard thankfully where the people running it used an eclectic mix of PP, Rashid, Halfpenny, Marks and other to get the best out of the various horses there. If I hadnt done NH with Archer I would have sold him 2 years ago, I used a pressure halter (you can ride him in it now) and a carrot stick ( but I never waved it at his face) it was all about a little mutual repect, common sense, and getting my horse to trust my judgement.
Sorry if I've gone a little OT but I wanted you to know that I've been where you are and approached it the same way, but if you are worried about Captain becoming headshy you must either change trainers or ask them to change that particular element of the technique.
Best of luck hun
Hackedoff
I have read all your replies but I have to say it will take a few more reads to take all your answers/advise in. Thank you for all your input.
SKIB - You havent offended me at all and thank you for your honesty. I took Captain out to his field this morning and just concentrated on getting him to focus on what I was doing as it was very windy and very chilly. But this evening I thought I would put into practise the turning exercise. Sorry I dont know what proper name to give it. I didnt use the whip to tap his face I relied more on the pressure/release technique and guided him with my eyes as to the direction I wanted him to go. It seemed to work in a positive novicey way. So I will continue to practise.
SKIB - You havent offended me at all and thank you for your honesty.
I took Captain out to his field this morning and just concentrated on getting him to focus on what I was doing as it was very windy and very chilly. But this evening I thought I would put into practise the turning exercise. Sorry I dont know what proper name to give it. I didnt use the whip to tap his face I relied more on the pressure/release technique and guided him with my eyes as to the direction I wanted him to go. It seemed to work in a positive novicey way. So I will continue to practise. 
Don't have time to read the rest of the thread in detail so my take on it is:
Follow your instincts. You're not comfortable with doing it so don't do it. If you're not comfortable with the method then look for something else that you are comfortable with.
I agree with Bay Mare. The level of force that is acceptable is really a personal decision, and I guess your horse tells you if you use too much.
If you want to see what level of force might be used, then you need to see the trainer working with other people maybe? Who is your trainer? Are they teaching you Parelli-style? A Parelli instructor might well tap a horse on the face with the stick as part of their 4 phases asking the horse to move over. Another instructor might raise the stick up between them and the horse as a block, but not approach the horse and tap it, if you see the difference. Say a horse has a pattern of throwing it's head about as a "weapon" to move people around, rather than being confrontational and going at the horse, some trainers will just put an object - thier arm, their stick, a whirling rope - in the way and let the horse walk into it.
This is why I ask what you are trying to get out of this.
If you want to see what level of force might be used, then you need to see the trainer working with other people maybe? Who is your trainer? Are they teaching you Parelli-style? A Parelli instructor might well tap a horse on the face with the stick as part of their 4 phases asking the horse to move over. Another instructor might raise the stick up between them and the horse as a block, but not approach the horse and tap it, if you see the difference. Say a horse has a pattern of throwing it's head about as a "weapon" to move people around, rather than being confrontational and going at the horse, some trainers will just put an object - thier arm, their stick, a whirling rope - in the way and let the horse walk into it.
This is why I ask what you are trying to get out of this.
At my RI I get taught similiar to what Levi/Jack explains.
What we also do, is whenever the phases are upped so that we touch the horse with carrot stick (touch being a "slap") , we always smile and laugh (in a friendly way) eg: " o dear, did you run into that". It takes any anger or fear issues away. The horses all become light, because they don't get nagged.
What we also do, is whenever the phases are upped so that we touch the horse with carrot stick (touch being a "slap") , we always smile and laugh (in a friendly way) eg: " o dear, did you run into that". It takes any anger or fear issues away. The horses all become light, because they don't get nagged.
Y
Yann
Guest
It's all about language isn't it?
Could equally be, (or perhaps should be) 'the phases are upped so that we hit the horse with carrot stick'
You can get lightness without hitting your horse. If you want the horse to step sideways and your cue is pressure on the side of the face, the horse is highly unlikely to get what's being asked for straight away. Bopping him harder and harder until he tries to find a way out and succeeds is only going to frighten and upset him, or worse make him fight back. It's not a tantrum.
Next time you ask and he's worked it out he's going to move quickly because he doesn't want to be hit, not a great basis for a partnership. You can do the same thing by making what you're asking for very obvious (leading with the halter, touching the horse) and starting with the smallest try and building on it, keeping everything as soft and quiet as you can. Positive reinforcement can be a really powerful tool here too, Rio is capable of doing lovely forequarter yields in response to nothing more than a suggestion with my hand.
Could equally be, (or perhaps should be) 'the phases are upped so that we hit the horse with carrot stick'
You can get lightness without hitting your horse. If you want the horse to step sideways and your cue is pressure on the side of the face, the horse is highly unlikely to get what's being asked for straight away. Bopping him harder and harder until he tries to find a way out and succeeds is only going to frighten and upset him, or worse make him fight back. It's not a tantrum.
Next time you ask and he's worked it out he's going to move quickly because he doesn't want to be hit, not a great basis for a partnership. You can do the same thing by making what you're asking for very obvious (leading with the halter, touching the horse) and starting with the smallest try and building on it, keeping everything as soft and quiet as you can. Positive reinforcement can be a really powerful tool here too, Rio is capable of doing lovely forequarter yields in response to nothing more than a suggestion with my hand.
'Upping' the 'pressure' can be related to an English speaking person 'talking' to another person who speaks no English.
You say what you have to say .... they don't understand
You say what you have to say a little clearer .... they still don't understand
Which path do you take now?
a)
You yell what you have to say .... they still don't understand
You yell even louder what you have to say .... if they haven't already moved away from you they will now, they may even nod in agreement to pacify you!
OR
b) You try a different way of communicating
If your horse doesn't understand within 3 tries then you should find another way to communicate what it is you're asking of them.
I liked my old sig line which went something along the lines of:
"Show me a trainer who has to tell a horse how to do something the same way over and over and over again and I'll show you who the slow learner is"
You say what you have to say .... they don't understand
You say what you have to say a little clearer .... they still don't understand
Which path do you take now?
a)
You yell what you have to say .... they still don't understand
You yell even louder what you have to say .... if they haven't already moved away from you they will now, they may even nod in agreement to pacify you!
OR
b) You try a different way of communicating
If your horse doesn't understand within 3 tries then you should find another way to communicate what it is you're asking of them.
I liked my old sig line which went something along the lines of:
"Show me a trainer who has to tell a horse how to do something the same way over and over and over again and I'll show you who the slow learner is"
didnt want to quote the whole post, but well described
put that way it makes so much sense Well, speaking as a weary old veteran of many a Parelli clinic... Upping the phases, tapping, hitting as a result... it does work. I'm not saying that's how I'd like to approach it, but it works. Sometimes the horses get the message quickly, sometimes they get upset, some set themselves against it, a few fight back.
I'm not arguing for this, but I know that every horse I've seen trained by an experienced PNH person has yielded to the 4 phases method. The owners might think their horse will be different, and it might not be so effective if they try it, but PNH trainers get the results.
They tend not to keep trying the same thing over and over again, because their "phase 4" is what they would term "effective". The idea being that when the horse sees the signals starting again, it will remember what phase 4 felt like and avoid going there again.
I'm not supporting it, I'm just explaining why the trainer is doing this, and that I know it will work. Novice Nic mentions that she is now working with guiding her horse away with her eyes, this may even be easier as a result of the training session. Because the first thing you do to move the horse over is lift up your energy and focus through the horse to where you want it to go. Then you would raise the stick and up the phases.
(Why does Parelli carrot stick riding work so well? Because they have made sure their horses move their heads away when the stick comes into their eye-line.)
That is why I'm sort of undecided about Valiant's description of how they are being taught. (But please don't be offended Valiant!!). You don't ask the horse to move over with a smile and relaxation, you give the horse the idea that you are going to ask something of it by becoming unrelaxed and focused. This is why a horse should stand happily for rope swinging in the "friendly game", but move over from a very similar looking swing when you want them to. The difference is focus and intention.
Also, there is a difference IMHO in the horse "walking into that" and you approaching the horse and making contact. Not saying either is wrong (see how diplomatic I'm trying to be??). But, if you are trying to yield a horse over by waving and then tapping a stick at/on it's face then the horse isn't walking into anything, you are walking into them, so it's a confrontation. However, if you have a horse leaping all over your head, and you put your stick between you to block them, and they make contact... it's a different interaction in my view. Your energy should be down and you should probably try to not even focus on the horse, so they don't associate the stick in their way with you. Even Mark Rashid says that horses understand self defence.
Oh blimey, I'm reading this back and don't even know if it makes sense. But post anyway - can always delete it
I'm not arguing for this, but I know that every horse I've seen trained by an experienced PNH person has yielded to the 4 phases method. The owners might think their horse will be different, and it might not be so effective if they try it, but PNH trainers get the results.
They tend not to keep trying the same thing over and over again, because their "phase 4" is what they would term "effective". The idea being that when the horse sees the signals starting again, it will remember what phase 4 felt like and avoid going there again.
I'm not supporting it, I'm just explaining why the trainer is doing this, and that I know it will work. Novice Nic mentions that she is now working with guiding her horse away with her eyes, this may even be easier as a result of the training session. Because the first thing you do to move the horse over is lift up your energy and focus through the horse to where you want it to go. Then you would raise the stick and up the phases.
(Why does Parelli carrot stick riding work so well? Because they have made sure their horses move their heads away when the stick comes into their eye-line.)
That is why I'm sort of undecided about Valiant's description of how they are being taught. (But please don't be offended Valiant!!). You don't ask the horse to move over with a smile and relaxation, you give the horse the idea that you are going to ask something of it by becoming unrelaxed and focused. This is why a horse should stand happily for rope swinging in the "friendly game", but move over from a very similar looking swing when you want them to. The difference is focus and intention.
Also, there is a difference IMHO in the horse "walking into that" and you approaching the horse and making contact. Not saying either is wrong (see how diplomatic I'm trying to be??). But, if you are trying to yield a horse over by waving and then tapping a stick at/on it's face then the horse isn't walking into anything, you are walking into them, so it's a confrontation. However, if you have a horse leaping all over your head, and you put your stick between you to block them, and they make contact... it's a different interaction in my view. Your energy should be down and you should probably try to not even focus on the horse, so they don't associate the stick in their way with you. Even Mark Rashid says that horses understand self defence.
Oh blimey, I'm reading this back and don't even know if it makes sense. But post anyway - can always delete it
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