The stupid hunt ....

[Mary Poppins]

But the point is that hunting did (and to a certain extent still does) play a part in the management of the countryside. It is NOT just about pleasure for humans.

If you read back over this thread you will see many pro-hunt supportors who state that hunting is not an effective method of controlling foxes at all. I am not going to repeat it all again as this has been discussed in great depth already. Many pro-hunters have admitted that they hunt because they enjoy the day out and don't feel any remorse about killing the fox.

 

[kirby]

But the point is that hunting did (and to a certain extent still does) play a part in the management of the countryside. It is NOT just about pleasure for humans.

So the fox is allowed to indulge a natural instinct, but hounds are not. Does this not smack of double standards somewhat?

the hounds are not wild. They rely on their keepers to feed them and care for them, same as all domesticated and working animals do.

 

[Mary Poppins]

So the fox is allowed to indulge a natural instinct, but hounds are not. Does this not smack of double standards somewhat?

So should we open the doors of our zoos to let all the animals indulge in what is natural for them? Perhaps we should introduce some lions into the countryside and see what happens...

The hounds are introduced to the countryside by the hunt and collected at the end of the day - they are controlled and fed by humans. If we wanted to let nature do as nature intended, we should let the hounds be totally wild and not bother going along with them at all.

Just another thought, if hunting with dogs was deemed to be totally necessary (as you previously stated), why do a whole load of riders and horses have to go with them? Surely the same job could be done by just a pack of hounds and one master?

 

[Twigletz7]

Since when have pigs, chickens, ducks, geese and turkeys been hunted by hounds as a sport?

At any rate, all the above animals are at least in the food chain.....when was the last time you had fox on your dinner plate?

Somebody earlier mentioned banning all blood sports; a large amount of blood sports include the shooting of animals that are then eaten (just like all those mentioned above) the only difference being the way they captured/killed and their popularity on the dinner table ie. they are not commercially farmed.

If someone went out and shot a few rabbits and then proceeded to eat them for dinner is that ok or does that justify banning?

 

[whatever]

The fox hasn't changed
The hounds haven't changed
Hunting hasn't really changed
The arguments for and against haven't change.

Nor has the fact that neither side will EVER agree with the other

 

[kirby]

Somebody earlier mentioned banning all blood sports; a large amount of blood sports include the shooting of animals that are then eaten (just like all those mentioned above) the only difference being the way they captured/killed and their popularity on the dinner table ie. they are not commercially farmed.

If someone went out and shot a few rabbits and then proceeded to eat them for dinner is that ok or does that justify banning?

It is a tricky one, im anti, im vege, and in the meat farming industry most of the animals are not kept in natural conditions.

I could not eat any animal, people who do eat animals it would be better for the welfare of the animal if they have had a good life beforehand, as i hae mentioned in an earlier post people have choices in shops now which welfare standard meat and eggs they can purchase. A wild rabbit shot for meat is better choice than the factory farmed rabbit for meat. Bloodsports are when an animal is killed for pleasure not food.

If that makes sense.

 

[wanabe]

Depends what exemption you utilise, we mainly flush to a bird of prey, so the fox is by no means incidental and never has been...

I'm very interested. Does the bird-of-prey get to eat the fox?

 

[kirby]

List of blood sports
Badger-baiting
Bear-baiting
Betta-fighting
Bull-baiting
Bullfighting
Cockfighting
**** throwing
Cricket fighting
Dog fighting
Fox hunting
Fox tossing
Gladiatoral spectacles
Hare coursing
Hog dogging
Human-baiting
Hunting
Insect fighting
Rat baiting
Rodeo
Spider fighting
Wolf hunting

from google wilkpedia [sp]

 

[wanabe]

If you read back over this thread you will see many pro-hunt supportors who state that hunting is not an effective method of controlling foxes at all. I am not going to repeat it all again as this has been discussed in great depth already. Many pro-hunters have admitted that they hunt because they enjoy the day out and don't feel any remorse about killing the fox.

I agree, foxhunting is about fun -- for the humans and the hounds -- for the fox -- not so much!

But I strongly maintain that the humans involved don't get the enjoyment from seeing the fox killed; and certainly not from seeing the fox run exhausted and scared, etc.

 

[wanabe]

If you read back over this thread you will see many pro-hunt supportors who state that hunting is not an effective method of controlling foxes at all. I am not going to repeat it all again as this has been discussed in great depth already. Many pro-hunters have admitted that they hunt because they enjoy the day out and don't feel any remorse about killing the fox.

Agreed, but why should we feel remorse about the fox being killed? He must be killed one way or another and I'm not convinced that being killed by hounds is more unpleasant than all the other ways they will die.

If you mean we don't feel any remorse about the fox being chased, scared, etc. I agree. I think we don't have that much empathy.

 

[wanabe]

No it is the killing of the fox by the dogs that I find unacceptable, not the chasing. The problem for me is that foxes get killed for no other reason than to satisfy the humans on the hunt. I thought that this point had been made clear on this thread already.

If the fox were to be let go unharmed I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. If a fish were to be let back into the water unharmed then this doesn't bother me at all. However, how do you stop the dogs from harming the fox? Surely this goes against their instincts?

I don't understand your attitude toward catch-and-release fishing. The playing of the fish must be scary and painful for it just as the chase is for the fox. I realize fish probably don't feel pain as much.

 

[Cerys]

"They do eat dogs in Thailand and most probably breed them for meat. In my opinion, that's no different to the French breeding horses for the same reason and I'd have no problem eating either if I ever visited those countries."

This surprises me slightly, as far as suffering goes these two meat options are hardly low on the scale. Most dogs bred for meat in thailand are kept in small, over-crowded cages all their life, many of them suffer broken bones and bite wounds that do not receive any attention and the traditional way of killing these dogs is throwing them alive into boiling water or oil.

As we know many horses bred for (or ended up as)
meat usually suffer by travelling long distances to slaughter, again in over crowded conditions.

Perhaps you feel that if the animal is going to be eaten then the suffering it endures is insignificant?

 

[india]

"They do eat dogs in Thailand and most probably breed them for meat. In my opinion, that's no different to the French breeding horses for the same reason and I'd have no problem eating either if I ever visited those countries."

This surprises me slightly, as far as suffering goes these two meat options are hardly low on the scale. Most dogs bred for meat in thailand are kept in small, over-crowded cages all their life, many of them suffer broken bones and bite wounds that do not receive any attention and the traditional way of killing these dogs is throwing them alive into boiling water or oil.

As we know many horses bred for (or ended up as)
meat usually suffer by travelling long distances to slaughter, again in over crowded conditions.

Perhaps you feel that if the animal is going to be eaten then the suffering it endures is insignificant?

I would only eat horses that where bred in France, I wouldn't knowingly eat any animal that had been imported on the hoof. Neither would I eat a dog (or any other animal) that had been bred, reared or killed inhumanely.

 

[india]

Somebody earlier mentioned banning all blood sports; a large amount of blood sports include the shooting of animals that are then eaten (just like all those mentioned above) the only difference being the way they captured/killed and their popularity on the dinner table ie. they are not commercially farmed.

If someone went out and shot a few rabbits and then proceeded to eat them for dinner is that ok or does that justify banning?

That was me, and I was refering to bloodsport as in hunting with dogs. Shooting, if done competently doesn't comprise the animals welfare..it's there one minute and gone the next.

Hunting with hounds drives the animal to exhaustion before the kill, this type of hunting has also been proven to cause severe trauma before death.

If I had a choice of being shot dead or killed by hunting hounds..I know which one I'd opt for every time.

 

[Pale Moon]

I don't understand your attitude toward catch-and-release fishing. The playing of the fish must be scary and painful for it just as the chase is for the fox. I realize fish probably don't feel pain as much.

No they don't but I'm sure they would if they were dragged out of the water and torn apart on the bank by a maddened angler!!

 

[jaydevon]

No they don't but I'm sure they would if they were dragged out of the water and torn apart on the bank by a maddened angler!!

how do we know they dont though?

 

[skips and soda]

No. Much as I dislike sport shooting at least what is getting shot is usually going to end up on someone's plate, in which case it's fair enough in my book.

If the fox was eaten after it was killed would it honestly make you feel any better?

 

[sonnet]

Interesting you mention tradition. That's something that hasn't been discussed at all (probably because it's not such a big issue). First of all, let me say that I don't see anything wrong with enjoying a tradition per se. It's not hard to understand why it gives us a good feeling - it links us to the past, provides a reassuring sense of continuity with the lives of our ancestors, and unites communities by providing an shared activity. I do wonder sometimes though whether an activity being traditional is enough of a reason to carry on with it if there are other good reasons to stop it. I guess it's a matter of balance - do the bad aspects of a tradition outweigh the good? In the case of foxhunting, its intrinsic value as a tradition only exists for those involved in it, whereas the 'antis' have no such sense. That's one reason why views differ so strongly.

Of course an activity being traditional is not the only reason to carry it on- but as has been discussed (at length) there are many other reasons to keep fox hunting alive- if only to keep the industry (alebit a small one) going.

Just as a side not to the veggies (who always seem to have more extreme views on this matter) do you eat cheese etc. and use leather?

 

[Pale Moon]

how do we know they dont though?

Well, I would doubt that most anglers would grab a tiny Tench, Perch, or Roach and rip its guts out - what would be the point for heavens sake???? Anglers don't like to kill things, they like the thrill (if that is the word) of sitting on the bank for hours on end, waiting for a fish to bite.... i have seen my dad do it... but he uses barbless hooks and whenever he catches a fish he kisses it (saddo!!) and throws it back - his intention is never to hurt it, so I think that is a pretty silly thing to say, to be honest... how many anglers have you seen trashing fish at the side of the local canal?????

 

[mindymoo]

hallelujah!! totally agree, its called progress? . . .