The stupid hunt ....

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I think it's dispicable but I still believe two wrongs do not make a right. Like I said in my earlier post, there are plenty of other horrific crimes against animals that go on in this country everyday but the existance of one wrong does not justify the continuation of another. If banning fox hunting brings the issue of animal welfare into the spotlight and widens peoples interest in issues such as intensive farming then it can only be a step in the right direction. Perhaps the governments time and money could better have been spent trying to improve farming conditions? But then you would have the outrage of farmers left out of pocket, people comlpaining about the increased cost of dairy and meat products on our shelves... whatever you do you're bound to upset somebody. There will always be people who lack compassion for animals and like to turn a blind eye to their suffering if they are to gain from it in some way, in the case of fox-hunting though this percentage of people was outnumbered and the law was passed. We can only hope in time the majority will swing in a similar fashion in other areas of animal cruelty in our country.

So what is more important at the moment, human suffering or animal suffering? Yes it would be nice if the government had the time and money to address all these issues and we the public had the money to pay the extra for the fluffy chicks we eat that had been hand reared in cosey appartments with room to roam away from the nasty predators etc. BUT for me i would sooner the government put some effort into sorting this country and its finances out. Reduced hospital waiting lists, free dental treatment, free prescriptions, reduced crime so I felt safe going out after dark. old age pensions etc etc etc

I am sorry but if I am of ill health, with no teeth, living on the bread line it will give me no comfort whatsover knowing the animals are all OK
 
wooohooo you get a prize...

So what is more important at the moment, human suffering or animal suffering? Yes it would be nice if the government had the time and money to address all these issues and we the public had the money to pay the extra for the fluffy chicks we eat that had been hand reared in cosey appartments with room to roam away from the nasty predators etc. BUT for me i would sooner the government put some effort into sorting this country and its finances out. Reduced hospital waiting lists, free dental treatment, free prescriptions, reduced crime so I felt safe going out after dark. old age pensions etc etc etc

I am sorry but if I am of ill health, with no teeth, living on the bread line it will give me no comfort whatsover knowing the animals are all OK

.... for the 1000th post! :D
 
So what is more important at the moment, human suffering or animal suffering? Yes it would be nice if the government had the time and money to address all these issues and we the public had the money to pay the extra for the fluffy chicks we eat that had been hand reared in cosey appartments with room to roam away from the nasty predators etc. BUT for me i would sooner the government put some effort into sorting this country and its finances out. Reduced hospital waiting lists, free dental treatment, free prescriptions, reduced crime so I felt safe going out after dark. old age pensions etc etc etc

I am sorry but if I am of ill health, with no teeth, living on the bread line it will give me no comfort whatsover knowing the animals are all OK

I guess that falls down to character and your own personal priorities. Like I said, people have varying levels of compassion for animals, that is something that will never change.

I think it's a bit naive to assume that money currently wasted by pointless government activities and campaigns will ever be spent anywhere more useful ;)

But in answer to your question then yes, I feel improving conditions that captive animals are kept in is equally important as improving human living conditions. Wild animals I am happy to fend for themselves, but the way animals are kept and treated in certain industries in this country is deliberately inflicting cruelty and suffering. If we choose to keep animals for their produce then fine, after all we are biologically designed to do so and I have no issues with eating meat etc, but if we do choose to keep these animals under our care then it is our reponsibility to cater for their welfare needs.

If we are going to start moaning about wasted money spent on animal welfare then perhaps it would be better to start addressing issues such as the ridiculous amount of money our government pays out in undeserved benefits... or the £900million that is being spent on the London Olympics 2012?

If it is a matter of cost that concerns you then I think you'll find there are many corners to be cut before scrapping animal welfare off the agenda of our countries concerns.
We live in a very rich, but unfortunately equally a very selfish society.
 
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I'm reading "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins (as part of my uni course) and its interesting that some of the theories are visable in this thread

must say on a side note it is a very good (but at times hard going!) book:)
 
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If it is a matter of cost that concerns you then I think you'll find there are many corners to be cut before scrapping animal welfare off the agenda of our countries concerns.
We live in a very rich, but unfortunately equally a very selfish society.


Interesting point Nat, cost does not concern me. Some time back I was involved in a small game shoot. One noght at the pub a group of people were having a go at us about shooting and ruining the countryside. Our shoot spent hundreds, if not thousands of £'s on improving the habitat not just for the game species but the song birds, owls etc etc. The anti shooters? not a penny spent on improving the countryside. Talk is cheap :)
 
Oops only just found this....

I agree, but I wish your posts had been on a farming forum because there's still a number of questions I'd like answering.

My thoughts remain the same, but thank you for apologising.:)

What would you like me to answer and I will try?

I'm sorry but I really feel that you don't believe me, when why would I have reason to lie?

I will not do the whole "its so hard" speech as I am more than happy with my way of life.

I do wonder where your from as the situation around the Cumbrian hill farms are really not so different to the one which I descride, I actually know a couple of farmers that are in our position...we need the extra money.

The practical aspect of it is that my OH has never been on holiday (and I really mean never) not just a holiday abroad but a holiday at all. He works till about 10 every night and is up a 6 in the morning most days. He works 8-4 as a tree surgeon. But like he says it is his choice, we could get rid of all the stock and just live in the house and rent out the land (or open a livery yard which is my idea), but he won't hear anything of it (i'm sure you know how proud farmers are).

I am certainly not like him but try to help where I can, his dad also helps where possible when gathering etc but he is old and the full time carer of his wife who suffers with third stage MS.

As I said, I would not really like to change things either and wouldn't normally write about it (on an internet horse forum) but its true.
 
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Cerys

I’m sorry if I gave the impression of not believing you because that wasn’t my intention.

The point I’ve been trying to make from day one is that any working class farmer in my father’s position, would find it both physically and mentally impossible to hold down a full time job (and study at university) without a lot of help.....and my opinion on that still remains the same.

However, I must admit to knowing very little about Cumbrian hill farming. Could it be that it isn’t as time consuming or involved as beef/dairy farming and sheep breeding in rural Shropshire? :confused: If that’s the case...this is probably why your OH can hold down a full time job and still find time to manage his stock and farmland.

If not......I’d still like to ask you those few questions.:)
 
I would totally agree that two wrongs don't make a right, and I also agree that the governments time and money could have been better spent!

I just thought I would pose the question as was speaking to someone in our village the other day who was ranting about the hunting, but she is the very same person who buys two chickens for £5 in Tescos because they are so cheap and feeds one of them to her dog. It just struck me as odd that someone who have such apparent compassion for the fox but yet happily eat chickens force fed and left to live in their own excrement for weeks on end!

Obviously I am NOT suggesting that anyone who is anti hunting is oblivious to the plight of any othe animals!

Sadly there are alot of people like that woman :(

Thank god for Hugh Fearnley Whittingstock (sp?) and Jamie Oliver hehe! Educating the nation that a £2 chicken isn't out roaming happily munching golden corn like the sticker on the carcass suggests!
 
I imagine that it would be absolutely impossible to have a full time job and a dairy farm whatever the size.

Hill farming is quite different to lowland farming, I have looked for definitions of a small holding and although many just say small farm I found some that say land less than 50 acres and we have more than that on one fell so I definately don't think we are a small holding.

Although our continental flock take some looking after, as do the mules to a slightly lesser extent, the swaledales only really come down off the fell 3 times a year so take very little looking after other than taking a big bale up twice a week in winter and riding round checking nobody has died or is ill (this can be done by my OH on the quad bike or I do it on my horse so killing 2 birds with one stone).

We take some of our holidays at lambing time and this year my nephew (who is my age) came for 2 weeks so we covered the main 6 weeks that way.

We don't have too many walls/ fences to keep but my OH worked full time on the farm for 2 years after finishing uni so most things that way are still in good repair, who knows, perhaps he will have to take another break from work in a few years to ket things like that up to scratch again.

Hope this explains a bit. (I would put a smiley face in here but not quite sure how!!)

ETA- forgot about the cows! These spend summer out and come in in winter, not really that time consuming as they are a suckler herd.
 
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Thanks for that Cerys. :)

From your description, it does appear that hill farming is far less involved and time consuming than lowland farming...especially with regard to the land management side of things.

I was basing my opinions on lowland farming when I mentioned that only a smallholder could possibly hold down a full time job and still be able to manage his stock and land efficiently without employing hired help. Having said that, I stand by my remark (which originally offended you) that I believe it would be impossible for any working class farmer to hold down part time jobs, study at university and still be able to efficiently manage and work their farm single handed.

I’m sorry if my remark still offends you, but that’s my opinion based on living with and around Shropshire farming communities for most of my life......so if you still disagree, I guess it would be best all round to just agree to have a difference of opinion on the subject.:)
 
my other half is a dartmoor hill farmer who has most of his flock of 1500 sheep out on the moor, the others are only out on the moor in the summer and come onto his low level farm off the high moor for the winter and lambing. he also has a suckler heard of about 400 cows which most of them are on the moor also in summer and in during the winter. i know the difference in dairy and hill farming as hill farming is alot less time consuming but still very hard work especially when trying to run a 275acre lower level farm at the same time. when they go collecting the bullocks or sheep a group of farmers go out all day every day for about a week bring all the stock off the moor thats about the most amount of time spent. this is done roughly 3 times a year for the sheep and in the autum for the bullocks. he cant go out to work doing anothre job but i guess he is effectivley running two farms.
 
keeping mine in or making fencing bigger just wont work at all... shes been known to try and jump out of her stable, and will happily pop over a five bar gate, even if its just cuz someone left her in the field on her own :rolleyes: thankgod we dont have problems with the hunt tanking around right outside our yard or fields... well, we havnt yet lol
 
keeping mine in or making fencing bigger just wont work at all... shes been known to try and jump out of her stable, and will happily pop over a five bar gate, even if its just cuz someone left her in the field on her own :rolleyes: thankgod we dont have problems with the hunt tanking around right outside our yard or fields... well, we havnt yet lol

The owner or keeper of a horse found straying on the highway commits an offence under the Highways Act 1980 and is liable to a fine not exceeding £1000.

'Keeper' is defined as someone who owns the animal, or has it in his possession; or is head of the household, where a member of that household isunder sixteen and owns the animal or has it in their possession.

Under common law there has never been any legal obligation for a person to fence their land; but an abligation can arise through agreement, or through long use, or where it was customary for fences to be erected/maintained by landowners. Where a person has always maintained fences over many years, the law will assume that he thought he had a duty to do it, and so that person would not be able to say, in law, that he had no duty.

That person has created a liability which also binds his successors in title.

A person whose land or property is damaged by a straying animal can claim for damages.

Section 7 of the Act entitles the person, who suffered damage, to detain the stray, provided it was not under anyone's control at the time he found it straying; he must, within forty eight hours, inform the police of his actions, and they will inform the owner, if known.

Lawful detention of the animal allows him to take one or other of the following courses;

He may claim for damages, or

He may legally sell the animal after fourteen days at market or public auction.

Where the animal is sold, the seller is entitled to keep only such proceeds as cover the cost of the damage he incurred.

This may mean that if yer horse jumps out of its field when the hunt goes past, and causes damage to someone else's land or property, not only may the owner be liable for a financial settlement, but it may result in the horse being sold for only enough money to cover the cost of the damage, which may be a good deal less than the horse is worth.

So, instead of being bullish about the hunt coming past your field, unannounced, and whining on about it in accordance with your anti-hunting views, sure you'd all be better advised to do something solid to ensure that you aren't the victims of a well established law, and end up being financially stung, or losing your horse as a result.

Remember that the hunt will be operating within that law too, but they will have the relevant permissions from the landowners over whose land they hunt, which puts them in a better legal position than most of us.

:);)
 
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My friend has a livery yard and writes on a blackboard the days when they know a hunt is going to happen. This does however, depend on the hunt organisers actually being helpful enough to give you this info. :rolleyes:

Drag hunting is now becoming a very popular sport now that the cruel hunting of foxes has stopped. If this is going to be an ongoing and popular equestrian sport there should be rules in place, one of these rules should be to notify the horse owners and liveries on the hunt route in advance of the hunt taking place. Activities like this should be regulated to protect those taking part in the hunt and those that are affected by the hunt. ;)
 
Drag hunting is now becoming a very popular sport now that the cruel hunting of foxes has stopped. If this is going to be an ongoing and popular equestrian sport there should be rules in place, one of these rules should be to notify the horse owners and liveries on the hunt route in advance of the hunt taking place. Activities like this should be regulated to protect those taking part in the hunt and those that are affected by the hunt. ;)


just because the bill was passed it hasnt actually stopped some people hunting foxes....drag hunting just isnt the same apparently *sighs*
 
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